Mark Scott: Hello, I'm Mark Scott, and I am both thrilled and humbled to present a once in a lifetime program for you today.

After 23 years with WNED and 53 years in the public broadcasting system, Don Boswell announced his retirement.

Although he isn't leaving us until June 30, 2021, he's busily preparing for his departure and the future of his beloved organization.

Before we depart, Don has graciously allowed us this opportunity to speak with him about his career, the lessons he's learned while in public television, and the future of PBS in our region.

It's a unique look inside an industry that provides all of us with so much thought provoking entertainment and educational content.

So please, without further ado, sit back, relax, and enjoy as we delve into the mind of a public broadcasting trailblazer.

The president and CEO of Buffalo Toronto Public Media, Don Boswell.

♪♪♪ Mark: Don, we'll get into your 23 years of WNED in a moment, but let's go back to the very beginning.

Don Boswell: Sure.

Mark: Why did you decide to dedicate your life to public broadcasting and the mission of public broadcasting?

Don: Well, Mark, there's a great story, and I always love telling it to people who ask me that question.

You know, when I was growing up, my dad was a big believer in education.

And that was the era, I guess, of the beginning of public broadcasting.

And so, it was funny, we brought this brand-new TV home and I'm thinking, "God, I'll get to watch all of my--the classics like, you know, 'Rin Tin Tin,' 'Sky King,'" you know, all the real classics.

And unbeknownst to me, he soldered the TV set so the only programming we could watch was public television.

And at that time at an early age, public television was strictly education.

So, that was about when I was 12 years old.

So, from 12 to 16, if I was in the house, that was the only thing that we'd actually watch was public broadcasting.

Mark: So, take us through your career, where did you start?

Don: Yeah.

Well, another great point of that, I guess with that story, was after those years of watching so much of public broadcasting, I thought, "You know, this might be a nice career to get into."

So, I found out who the general manager was of WQED in Pittsburgh, it was a gentleman named Don Tavner.

And to show you how old I am, to get around in Pittsburgh, they had streetcars.

So, it took three streetcars to actually get to his house.

So, when I got to his house, I had my nice little suit on, I had a half of a page of a resume, I knocked on the door and I said, "You know, Mr. Tavner, I'm looking for my first summer job, and I'd like it to be in public broadcasting.

And I'm hoping, you know, I can get hired."

And so, he looked at me and he said, "Well, son, what do you watch?"

And because I watched so many, you know, days and hours, I was able to recite from Sunday to Saturday every program on the hour and half hour.

And he'd just start laughing, and he said, "Son, you come to my office Monday and we'll have a job for you."

So, when I got to QED, you know, the first day they were, you know, showing me the ins and outs of the organization.

But then they assign me to, you know, actually work with Mr. Rogers.

And kind of really being a gopher, you know, get this, get that, set this up.

Just small things, but enough things to keep me busy, but engaged in working at the station.

Mark: Was that a thrill to work with Mr. Rogers?

Don: Well, at the time, I'll be open, you know, I was a--I was a 16 year old.

So, at that time, you know, Mr. Rogers, when you--when you get at that age, you know, you're not quite sure if he's for real or, you know, he comes across, you know, very educational.

And but my times there with him were probably the most creative in getting experience and understanding the importance of developing a content of a program for kids.

And he was just so dedicated and passionate about his role as that entertainer for kids.

And the work that it took for lesson plans, you know, taking on tough subjects, he just was tremendous, you know, inspiration to me, and I think helped me really formulate my sort of idea of what I wanted to do in public broadcasting.

Mark: So, what happened after Mr. Rogers at WQED?

Did you go directly to the Dallas station?

Don: Yeah, no, what happened there was I started with my first station really being in Scranton Wilkes-Barre.

I was in community relations and producing at that time.

And I really enjoyed it.

I mean, it was one of the small stations where you had to kind of do everything.

So, I was doing the corporate relations sort of work, you know, for the guide and things of that nature.

But then also on the extra time I had, I would, you know, produce programs.

And it was interesting because I was lucky enough to find the funding I needed for my productions.

And so, the president of the station came to me, said, "Listen Don, we were thinking maybe you'll like to get into work in development."

And I said, "No, you know, I really enjoy producing.

And you know, I enjoy that real opportunity of being out and creating content."

And he said, "Well, this is what we pay in development."

And I said, "Well, what time do I start that job?"

Because clearly at that time, you know, stations were trying to raise new funding.

And I did have a certain passion for being able to be successful in bringing dollars in for programing.

So, that really kind of set it up in getting into development work.

So, really from there and that experience in working there, an opening came up in Seattle, Washington at KCTS in Seattle.

And I didn't think I was quite ready for it because the job description basically outlined responsibilities and years of experience I didn't have.

But the general manager, George Strimel at WVIA in Pittston-Scranton told me, "Listen, I'll get you the interview, it'll be up to you to see if you can get the job."

So, when I got to Seattle, it was interesting, I met a gentleman named Richie Meyer, he was a president.

And he really grilled me.

You know, "I don't know why I'm seeing you.

If it wasn't for being a friend of George Strimel, you wouldn't be here.

But you know, tell me why, you know, you should get this job."

And it was interesting, that was a university licensee station, so they just weren't doing a lot of things like indirect mail, they weren't using incentives on the air, they weren't doing anything related to some of the new sorts of things that stations were doing such as the experience I had at WVIA.

And then I made the mistake by saying, "Listen, I think I can make an extra million dollars for you by all these things that you're not doing in my first year.

And if I don't do that, then you can fire me."

And he said to me, "Will you put that in writing?"

And I laughed, I said, "Yes."

So, I put it in writing, and so that's how I get started in working at that station.

And then really after those I guess about a year and a half, the station just got these great numbers not only in its audience growth, but its membership growth.

So, Richie took the job in Dallas, Texas, and he just made this incredible offer to come to Dallas.

And it was--it was difficult because my wife and I were thinking about starting our family in Seattle, and I just been there no more than a year and 18 months, I guess, totally.

And so, it was just interesting to, you know, take that gamble, and coming to Dallas, and thinking about where that station could be.

I think there were some concerns ahead in Washington because that was a university licensee, very difficult to raise money outside the university.

And Dallas was a community licensee, so it made it very easy to think about what I could do in a bigger market, a station that maybe had been behind at times, it was open to new ideas and new ways to raise money in that community.

Mark: At what point did you think, "I want to run the TV station"?

Don: Yeah.

Well, I think that came later on.

I think I had been in Dallas for about 15 years.

And then, you know, the earlier experience at WVIA and then in Seattle, I just felt there were things that I really wanted to see get done in public broadcasting.

And in a lot of ways, the general manager is the network, you know?

They're setting the pace, the tone, the sort of direction and the focus, and they pretty much dictate what happens at a station.

Unlike a commercial network, where you're following what the network feeds you.

A station has that sort of autonomy to do the things they think are important for the community, still carrying the national program fee, but there's enough hours to do the things that you like to do.

And it just felt like it was the right opportunity to think about management, you know, and being a president.

And so, I just felt like I wanted to really pursue that, so I start really working on, you know, ideas of sort of ways beyond just, you know, development of what the station needs were in finance, you know, in the business office, in productions.

What were the things that were behind the scenes and, you know, human resources, HR, and all the things that come with that responsibility?

By going through it at Dallas and having that time, just gave me the confidence that it would be time for me to maybe look to try to get a job as a president of a PBS station.

Mark: So, even though that's a top ten market, being able to be a president made you come to Buffalo, which was number 54 in the nation.

Don: Yeah, well, what happened was I didn't--you know, Richie retired.

And at that time, I was the chief operating officer and I thought I had a good shot, you know, being in that role for the number of years and the success.

So, I tried to get the job and I didn't.

And I basically understood, you know, from the reasons they gave me why.

But I did say, "Well, in this next year, I'll make sure I stay here a year and help the new president get settled in the community."

And then I really started looking.

So, a year came and surprisingly, the Buffalo station opened up.

And I knew some really good things about Buffalo 'cause my aunt was from Buffalo and lived here.

And so, I remember just growing up visiting her, and I knew the marketplace, but I also knew that, you know, Canada was in the backdrop.

I mean, they were part of the marketplace.

So, even though it may have been the 53rd, 54th marketplace, when you add Toronto into it, you become like in the top ten, you become like number six or number five as far as the biggest TV market.

So, those were the things I thought, you know, having that kind of behind me and being able to maybe grow the Canadian market as well was in Buffalo that there was just some tremendous growth opportunities I thought were appropriate to go after the job.

And thank goodness I got the job.

Mark: You did, and what were your first impressions when you arrived here at WNED?

Don: Well, it was so funny 'cause, you know, the time I visit my aunt, the station wasn't built at that time.

And I got picked up at the airport by a cab, and I told them where I was going, and the cab driver wasn't really sure, but he had an idea where it was at.

But he drove me to channel 7, the ABC affiliate.

And you know, I didn't really realize it until I came up to the door and I saw ABC, and I went in and I said, "Well, I know I'm at the wrong location, but can you tell me where the PBS station is, channel 17?"

So, the lady said, "Oh, you can probably--you can walk there from here."

And so, as I was walking over, I saw this incredible building, four stories, and you only could dream what was inside.

And when I got to the actual building and saw the facilities and the capacity, you know, the sort of things that the studio offers and the opportunities that I thought could come from this building, the sort of dreams that I had, it just seemed like a match made in heaven.

And I just couldn't wait to get in the building, to really get the tour and see everything else that you could see from the outside.

Mark: And it was fairly new at that time.

Don: It was fairly new.

I think it was only maybe three or four years old at that time.

But it was just incredible.

And you know, most commercial stations, as we know, even in this community and outside of this community don't have a facility like we do.

And it's an asset, a real asset to this region and to this community.

Mark: Well, you did a program like we're doing today at the outset of your time here at WNED.

And what were some of the goals you laid out during that interview?

Don: Well, when I--when I first arrived here, I wanted to make sure the staff knew that it was important to be a content provider, and that there were tremendous opportunities if we could do it right.

Not only in growing the audience, but you know, growing revenue for the organization.

And so, I made it very clear that it was a new day of opportunity for radio and for television.

And that I put two signs in the lobby, one was "Imagine," and that was up for a period of time because I really wanted the staff just to kind of imagine where we could go, things we could do.

Now, the station had been doing some programming here.

You know, Mark Russell was a big opportunity.

The "Reading Rainbow" was being produced outside of the area.

But they were doing, you know, great productions.

I just felt that we could take him to a greater level being more regional and being more national in nature, but also really focus on some of the local assets both on both sides of the border, in Canada as well as in Buffalo.

But you know, trying to get them to understand that if we were to grow and do all these things that we had to do collaborations.

We couldn't do it all ourselves without having a sort of collaborative spirit.

So, that's where the second sign came in about collaboration.

And those signs still reside in our hallways now, but I think that's kind of what I would call the foundation for the organization.

That as much as we can think about what content we like, we also have to be open to the community's sort of interest and their sort of capacity to envision themselves what programming that we could also do in collaboration with us and with them.

And so, it started off just in a beautiful way.

I mean, I think the staff really got supportive of it, really got behind it in some of the things they were talking about and envisioning.

I had done some interviews in the community about where they thought the opportunities and content would be.

And it just, you know, was a great list of things that we, you know, from working with a community that we came up that we really felt good about.

Mark: So, 23 years later, how do you think you did on those goals that you set in that initial interview?

Don: Yeah, well, I'm very proud of this organization and our staff because, you know, a president can only envision things.

The staff actually has to get it done.

And the dedication and the growth that our staff has had in learning, in processing what it takes to work at that level to deliver those sorts of opportunities with productions, and to receive all the awards that we've received over the years, and the range of programing we've done has been amazing.

We're not in any one area.

We've done things dealing with health, arts and culture, history, just array of things that have brought, I think, great accolades to the station.

And also I think has really put us in the position where we're well thought of in the system.

And I think a lot of people are--you know, just don't realize that we're in this small market even though we have Toronto, that we're doing more productions than most major market stations are in bigger cities than we are.

Mark: What was the very first program produced under your leadership that aired nationally from WNED?

Don: Oh, Mark, that's a great question.

"Cirque Ingenieux" was the very first program.

And the reason why, to me, it was so fascinating was it had a lot of magic in it.

And I guess "Cirque Ingenieux" was a takeoff to Cirque du Soleil.

I didn't really know much about Cirque du Soleil at that time, but we did this program and it was just so magical and so colorful.

And I think the idea was really trying to show this community that we could do productions at that level.

And it was also nice that it was outside of the studio.

We did it at Shea's, I think it was over two days of taping.

But it was just one of those programs I think the audience was engaged.

We sold out both shows in Shea's, and it really was something that I think the station was proud of, I know the community.

I had a lot of great things to say about it.

And then it was interesting, Mark Romoff, who was Canadian consul general at that time, came to me and said, "You know, this was nice, but have you ever heard of Cirque du Soleil?

And then I went to see them, and then I realized even though as nice as our program was, nothing is like Cirque du Soleil.

Mark: Yeah, yeah.

So, the first of many programs, what are some of your favorites?

What do you remember of the national programs produced here at WNED?

Don: Yeah, well, I think just after that, "Seasons of Life" was the next one that was a production with JoAnn Falletta and the BPO.

And it was done in Clonahans.

And it was meaningful for me because I really didn't know JoAnn at the time.

Tom Baker, who was the head of the Shy Foundation, just thought it was a great opportunity to showcase JoAnn since she was, you know, one of the only at that time, I think, female conductors of a major orchestra.

And I thought, you know, meeting her and talking with her, wasn't quite sure if we could get PBS to air it, of course.

But it was wonderful.

It came out, you know, really well done.

And again, the staff was very engaged in that.

And it's just one of those programs that just kind of sticks with you.

I mean, it was--to see her, you know, for the first time on a national screen and to raise her visibility as the Shy Foundation had hoped it would.

But it also helped me as far as showing the range of things that we could do here at the station.

Then I think after that, it was the Frank Lloyd Wright program.

I give Stan Lipsey a lot of credit.

When I came to town, in my first week, you know, Stan said, "I'm going to--want to take you out to lunch."

As we all know, Stan was the publisher of "The Buffalo News."

And so, I'm thinking maybe we're going to the Buffalo Club or this fancy restaurant.

And I get in his car and he has a bag lunch, and he drives me to the Martin House.

And we're eating lunch, and this is in the winter keep in mind, you know, so there's snow and ice.

And at that time, you know, the facility wasn't where it is today, of course.

And Stan said to me, "You know, I want you to be engaged in hopefully somewhere down the road, this is a national story and a story that should be told, and that Buffalo is second to Chicago with the most Frank Lloyd Wright sorts of architecture."

And at the time, I didn't know that.

And he said, "I'm going to bring this building back.

I'm going to bring this Martin House back.

And I'm going to get you on the board so you can kind of follow along."

And it wasn't like saying, "Well, you know, ask me."

He says, you know, "You will get on this board," you know?

But Stan was right, I enjoyed that association with the people who were brought in to really help bring it back to life, and really get to know Stan and some other really strong and valuable community leaders at that time.

And I think that program really set the tone for what has opened up to the other architecture that we have here, Gray Clifton, on and on and on.

And I think after that, for me, the Underground Railroad.

I really didn't--you know, I knew about Canada playing a great role, of course, in the Underground Railroad, but there was a name I wasn't as familiar with, William Still.

And the story was really based on his sort of work on the Underground and really what took place coming out of Canada to Philadelphia.

And it just was a tremendous story to be told.

And when you mentioned William Still, there occasionally would be people would nod their head, but until they actually saw the video, they were just amazed of the range of that story, the things that that story actually told.

So, that was another wonderful program as well.

Then I think "The Klondike Gold Rush."

I mean, that comes from a good friend in Toronto, Phil Lind, who was the vice chair of Rogers Communications.

And he had this tremendous library of books about the Klondike gold rush.

And his, you know, uncle was, you know, very engaged in that whole story.

And it was just amazing to see all the artifacts that he had and the sort of history that came from that story in being able to actually tell it in a way that was, again, was very educational, but it was part of history.

And you know, people lost fortunes there.

And his uncle was one of the ones that maintained and held onto his wealth coming out of that gold rush.

And then I think the idea of the War of 1812, what a great story to tell from both sides of the border, from the Canadian perspective as well as the US perspective.

And you know, I think for me, it was one of those things I promised when I first got here that a story--when I was interviewed by the Toronto newspaper that it was one of those stories I think that I'd like to tell somewhere, you know, when the actual appropriate time came.

And you know, thank goodness there was funding that came from both sides of the border to make it happen.

The real pride I get out of that is that Canada adopted that program to be the official story for the War of 1812.

And then I think from there, "The Warrior Tradition."

Again, that came from a board member.

And as I said earlier, we wanted ideas not only from our staff, but from the community and from our board.

And Barry Brandon, I can recall he came on as our new board director.

And we always like to interview new board people and what ideas they have for content.

And Barry said, "Have you ever heard of the warrior tradition?"

And at that time, John Granite was the executive producer, and I just was shaking our head that we hadn't heard.

So, Barry made us get out our cell phones and google warrior tradition.

And it was just amazing to see all the things that were there about, you know, the sort of culture around the tradition of, you know, Native Americans and First Nation on the whole idea of protecting the land, and what it meant to protect the land, and the whole story of their tradition around that.

And it was just a beautiful story that, you know, again, had to be told.

And thanks to the efforts of, you know, Corporation for Public Broadcasting and funding we found, we were able to actually tell that story.

Mark: So, WNED also excels in telling local stories to the local audience, stories that you're not going to see on any other Buffalo TV station.

What are some of your favorites from that list?

Don: Oh boy, such a long list.

Well, the one that sticks out in my mind is "Remembering Toronto" because when I did come up and visit my aunt, we did a lot of camping in Fort Erie and all the way up to Hamilton, but never really got to Toronto.

So, to kind of see the sort of history of Toronto through that program and the sort of yesteryear of where it was and, you know, kind of where it was, you know, now today was just amazing.

And to kind of remember that sort of history, especially for people who grew up in Toronto.

I'm sure it was eye opening for them to actually see this program and see the sorts of things they remember growing up with, as it was for Buffalo at that time.

But from there, I guess maybe "Buffalo Houses of Worship" would probably be the next one on the US side.

Mark: That was a great show.

Don: Yeah.

Don: I just think, you know, we always talk about the architecture in Buffalo, and sometimes we don't think about our churches, and the stained glass and the designs of some of these incredible churches from various faiths.

And I think it was just beautifully done.

The stained glass was just amazing to see in some of these churches.

And then also to hear the history of the churches themselves.

Then I think it was really, 'cause I'm really interested in theatre, and so "Toronto's First Family of Theatre," and this with the Mirvish family, David Mirvish.

Just incredible, you know, of what took place with the Mirvish getting into theatre and, you know, almost having a five and dime storm, and them moving into that, which has created some of the wonderful theatre in North America as far as I'm concerned.

And that the family had taken that on, at times probably weren't probably the best business sort of sense to do so, but they did it because of the love of theatre and what that meant for them.

Mark: And just a reminder to our viewers and our members of WNED, a lot of these series are available on Passport.

Don: Exactly right, and that's what's so nice.

You know, I'm talking to you now and I'm sure we're going to be showing some clips as we go through them, but they do live in Passport.

And so, if you hear anything that I'm mentioning that you think you'd like to enjoy, they're there to be enjoyed.

Mark: Yeah.

You talked about being on the board of the Darwin D. Martin House Restoration Corporation, and you are on a lot of boards.

Why is that?

Don: Well, that's a great question, Mark.

You know, my major in college was community development.

In that sort curriculum, you're being taught to understand the sorts of what makes a community strong.

And also, what are the elements that need to be told, and through my eyes that could be told through public broadcasting?

And one of the things you learn through that major is to really get to know the community, you have to sit on boards where you meet leaders who have passions for those boards or the things that they do.

But then it becomes your passion because you start understanding why they joined the board and, you know, the reasons, you know, that for me being on the board is to understand the community better, as well as meet community leaders.

And so, I found that as a great opportunity to meet some of the, you know, greatest minds in western New York and in southern Ontario for the boards I sit there.

But also, the storytelling that comes from their perspective on the things that they love, could they be turned into opportunities for us?

So, once you get deeper into understanding, you know, the sort of stories behind a particular board that you're on, then you start thinking about how do you turn that into content?

And then if you do something special for that board and for that nonprofit organization, usually leaders that are on that board want to help you in other things that are important.

They don't have to sit on those other things, but they recognize what you're trying to do as a CEO.

And they realize that, you know, maybe they should be investing in programs and projects that also can tell other stories about our community.

And in some cases, on a national or regional level, and the same thing on the Canadian side.

You know, a lot of, you know, people in Buffalo know everything about Buffalo or western New York, but they may not know some of the real treasures that are in the Canadian side.

And say the same thing for the Canadians, how do you tell their stories on the US side that become national stories?

Because usually they're so bombarded by a number of US productions that some of the opportunities don't always get to American television.

And that's what's so nice about being on those boards, to really learn from those directors on the boards I served on, what are the other stories that we should be paying attention to?

And then they lead into introducing you to other community leaders.

And then they get the passion, the things they've seen us produce, and they want those programs and those stories to be told as well.

Mark: In our discussion about WNED programming, many of the shows are about Toronto, they're about Canada.

Why is the Canadian market so important to you?

Don: Mark, I think it really started when I worked at KCTS in Seattle.

We had a great relationship with Vancouver, and that marketplace was a market that the station served as well.

And so, it kind of opened the door to think about what things we could do further in Canada.

And so, we opened up a relationship with Simon Frasier University, and we had our office there.

And sort of the same things that we're doing here now was trying to, you know, look at a place where we could meet more Canadian producers, hear some of the stories that were prominent there.

But unfortunately, when Richie took the job in Dallas, I went with him at that time, and so never really had the chance to kind of develop that.

So, when this job opened up, that was the first thing I wanted to do.

It was how could we begin that process of developing the opportunities in Canada, in Toronto as we had tried to start to do that at Simon Frasier University in Vancouver?

And it's just amazing the fact that we do have a position there.

I mean, we serve a major market of Canada for, you know, WNED in Buffalo.

And we started opening the door by actually acquiring a facility there.

We--you know, we don't own it--or I should say we do own it, we don't rent it or lease it, we own it.

And we're probably one of the very few entities that are in broadcasting that own a facility that can also be a place to do productions and also, you know, have office space as well.

But that was really the beginning of the process to really think through how that marketplace could play into us being a storyteller.

You know, what were the stories there that weren't reaching the US?

What were the opportunities of really allowing ourself to kind of grow with that market as they were growing in their history, in their arts community, in their sort of entertainment community?

How can we take that into potential content opportunities for WNED?

Mark: So, who helped you to establish the WNED brand in Canada?

Don: Well, the first person is Phil Lind, and he's been really the angel.

Phil really had a commitment to making this work.

And Phil was the vice chairman of Rogers, was known by everybody in Toronto, and I think across Canada to be truthful.

But he knew the movers and shakers.

He opened the doors that allowed me to come in to really tell our story about what we were trying to do.

And since we were, you know, sort of new to that community, I mean, people, you know, basically saw the broadcast, but they weren't--we weren't really doing the productions that we do now, and associations that we've done, and the sort of involvement on boards there.

And so, he was key.

I mean, anytime I had a problem, I would come to Phil, tell him what the problem was, he'd pick up the phone and make a phone call, and it was solved.

So, he was really clearly I would call the central point of focus for us to make that move.

But also Mark Romoff, who I had mentioned earlier, who had been on the board of WNED here.

And when his role was done as the Canadian consul general in Buffalo, he ended up, you know, actually moving and working in Toronto.

So, Mark knew that community as well and was also able to be a big cheerleader for us in making sure I met the appropriate people and had a chance to really, you know, tell our story and make those associations that were important as well.

Mark: There is an organization called the CCPTA.

What does it do and how is WNED affiliated with it?

Don: Yeah, that's the Central Canadian Public Television Association, and it's a nonprofit organization that we've, you know, basically--and you know, created with Phil Lind, who had to be engaged 'cause he's a Canadian, and it has to be a Canadian nonprofit association.

So, we asked Phil if he could be the chair of that because we realized that we were receiving funding from individuals who probably wanted to give us more, but they weren't getting a tax write-off off for it.

And so, having this association allowed funds to actually go to the CCPTA.

And they would issue agreements with us to perform those productions.

But they were totally, you know, engaged with making sure that that was a nonprofit opportunity for our donors.

But also allowed us to go after foundations, you know, corporations, individuals who then allowed us to actually do the productions of the work that we needed to get done.

Mark: Does the fact that we're dealing with another country, you're receiving donations from viewers in that other country, does it complicate things for this organization?

Don: Not really.

I mean, I think it's an advantage.

So, I think most stations, you know, in the system would love to have because, you know, we're really working with two audiences, two binational sorts of situations of content.

That if you were in Dallas, there would be no way I could have an association with Canada.

Too far away, not easy to kind of have production crews there and all the things that we do being so close.

But I think, you know, Canadians have a strong, you know, I think position about their history, about their culture.

And I think what we try to do is really associate ourself with Canadian producers and writers and directors.

So, it's just not that the Americans are coming over here to do this.

We have Canadians who know that history and that are being paid from the funds that are coming in from the CCPTA.

So, it's just not us coming in, taking the money, and coming across the border.

Mark: Given the importance of Canada combined with the changing media landscape, about a year ago, WNED rebranded itself as Buffalo-Toronto Public Media.

What are--who are the key constituents of this organization?

Don: Yeah, well, Mark, I think it really starts in understanding and knowing your community.

And since we do address two different sorts of entities, you know, western New York and southern Ontario, once you understand and know that community, then you start understanding the sort of audience that you have to start, you know, programming for.

And I think a big part of knowing the audience is growing them in such a way that they become really engaged to wanting to be a member.

And then there's a certain I think responsibility you have for your members.

You know, people who really don't have to join the station can watch it for free, take advantage of everything, and not feel that they need to be a member.

They can just enjoy it.

And then you want to make sure that you're growing your membership base 'cause you're doing the right things for the community.

That you understand their needs, their issues.

And in some ways that's difficult, you know, being a binational station.

And we have to be very sensitive to the things that we air for both sides of the borders so that we can grow that audience and that sort of opportunity, to see the membership growth that we need to really, you know, have for this organization.

And I think once that happens, then I think it opens the door for, you know, corporations and foundations.

I think they're watching very closely, of course, the Nielsen ratings for both sides of the border.

They're understanding that, you know, they can use their dollars anywhere they'd like, but what makes it so special for us?

Why would they give that money to us and some-- not to someone else?

And so, once they see that, you know, from these numbers that, you know, we're like the ninth most watched station, so what does that mean nationally to have that?

Well, it talks about the demographics of our audience, the diversity of the communities we serve, the opportunities that gives us to, you know, tell the sorts of things and get into the needs of the community, either be it health issues, or wellness, or you know, the arts, the culture, the history.

All those things kind of wrap around in a way that really makes it easy that to have that corporate support while still maintaining that membership support, but also understanding not everybody's going to be a member.

So, if you can grow that audience enough, the percentages of the membership should go up, but the hope is that everybody sees value in what we do.

Mark: Well, let's talk about that business model.

We often talk about the model of public broadcasting when we raise money on the air on all the stations here.

Tell us about that model.

Don: That's probably where my greatest frustrations come in, Mark, because everybody thinks, "Well, the government gives you money and the state gives you money.

And you don't need to really ask me for anything."

And the real truth is that only 22% of our funding really comes from the state and federal government.

We really depend upon membership support.

I mean, that's 42% of what it takes to make the station, you know, operate.

And it's still and will always be a key component.

Now, you know, for the Canadians, I know that with TV Ontario that, you know, it's 90% funded by the government.

That's not the case here.

You know, we have 22% funding from the government, and so there's an array of sort of collaborations they have to take place for that to grow, and membership is one of them.

You know, we're lucky enough that we do get corporate support, which is like 10%.

And then, you know, we basically, you know, get foundation funding and other ways that we look of renting our towers space and other sorts of ancillary things, and special events and all that.

But that's a big--when you think about what its responsibility of this station, you know, to keep in the black, not to operate in the red, it's really that community sort of engine that really makes it work.

And the more that we can get people to understand that it's not government funding, it's really up to them to make it happen.

And I think we try to press that on our membership campaigns, in our guide, and, you know, everything that we do to try to make sure people realize it's up to them to have a strong station and the capacity to really do programs that they enjoy and keep them continuously coming in their homes.

Mark: When you arrived here in 1998, there was TV, there was radio, the internet was in its infancy.

Things have really changed since then.

Reflect on how these changes have affected Buffalo-Toronto Public Media.

Don: Well, it's interesting.

I mean, it's the challenge of having more stations and yet the opportunity.

So, we have three, you know, TV stations, so three radio stations.

And of course, everybody knows WNED, which is, you know, our sort of, you know, landmark name and situation.

But we also have the Create, you know, channel, which is a great channel, you know, to basically have the kind of how-to's and some of the real historical things that deal with the arts and history, and the makeup of that station is just wonderful.

And then we have the PBS Kids Channel.

'Cause I think more people are relying on the opportunity, how do they entertain their kids, but do it in a very educational way so they're just not watching, you know, something on television that doesn't have that sort of return on that time?

And so, there's a lot of effort that goes into having, you know, the PBS Kids Channel.

And then you look at radio.

You know, we've always had the beginning, it started with WNED AM.

We were lucky to get and be able to be in the opportunity to have WBFO, which has been incredible for the success in what they've achieved.

And it just makes me so proud of the work that comes out of that station.

But you know, using, you know, the opportunities of digital, we're able to have Jazzworks.

You know, 'cause at one time when BFO was operating, they had a jazz component of that station.

And you know, people were disappointed when we took over the station and we didn't have jazz any longer.

And I assured them through the opportunities that we were going to have with digital that hopefully there would be an opportunity to have a 24-hour HD channel with nothing but jazz, and so we have that now.

And so, people love that opportunity.

And of course, we have our, you know, what I call the foundation of WNED FM is being the classical.

And it's just been amazing over these, you know, times how important classical radio has been for so many who are looking for an escape.

I mean, we're talking about COVID and a lot of the issues that come with COVID.

And you know, the concerns about jobs and stock market and all of that, so it's nice to see that the classical station audience has really grown during these times.

And I think we've brought in a new audience who really appreciate the sort of ability to kind of escape through the music and through the sort of opportunities that, you know, classical music brings to you, you know, in a different sort of pace than everything else.

Mark: Let's talk about the staff of this station and all of the stations.

How important is the staff to you personally?

Don: Well, if everybody talks about it's Don Boswell, Don Boswell, Don Boswell, it's not.

It's really our staff that make me look good.

I mean, I like to think I'm a creative person, not only, you know, the things I have in mind, but you know, hearing and seeing things that come from the community, and knowing how we can make that happen.

But it really falls onto the staff.

You know, I mean, we're a small station, but we've got a big reputation.

And again, a lot of the things that we've done, a lot of the stretching, and the learning, and growing, and the passion, and the opportunities to make small things the big things from our national efforts, you know, in productions, to our regional efforts, to the events that we do in the community, from our educational arms, there are a number of people behind all of that.

It's not Don Boswell, it's the strength of the ability to grow a staff and see them do their jobs without micromanaging them.

To have them take ownership and pride, and look at the opportunities where maybe they've--something didn't go right, but what did they learn from it?

And what can they do in the future to make it better?

But it's really the staff that's really driven this station and stations to be what it, you know, has been, and not Don Boswell.

I mean, I'm proud to be the CEO and president.

I know that's a certain responsibility, but if you don't have your staff behind you and able to fill those dreams and those opportunities and that growth, we would still be something that would be less than we are now, much less than we are now.

And I'm really proud of it, very proud of it.

Mark: What is it about western New York and southern Ontario that convinced you to stay here for 23 years?

Don: Yeah, well, I think it starts with this can-do attitude.

This region has been through a lot over its years, you know, when you think about the loss of, you know, the steel mills and the sort of unemployment sort of that occurs in the marketplace.

But the ability to kind of challenge itself to solve its own problems, and to also reinforce the important elements in the community that are the sort of brand of the marketplace.

And I'd like to think that, you know, we're thought as a key brand and a key institution here that are at the same level of the colleges, the art museum, the historical sorts of makeup of this community.

And I think that the attitude of that we're going to make it work, and whatever it takes to make it work.

And then I think it's this sort of, you know, small station that thinks and builds and produces big.

And that's the beauty of I think, you know, being here for so long is that this station has taken on programs on a national level that most small market stations wouldn't be able to do.

And because of the growth of our station with our member base, the support that we get from the corporations and foundations, the support that our staff gets and the growth of their experiences, and then challenging us to think that way as a community projects has really made it so why would you want to leave?

But I just have found that it's been an incredible market to live in, incredible market to work within.

I have a staff that I love and cherish.

I have a community that I feel loves and appreciates, you know, what we do.

And I know they want to keep it strong as much as I do, as much as the staff does, and that makes all the difference in the world.

Mark: What do you think are your biggest accomplishments, the things you're most proud of?

Don: Yeah.

Well, I love the fact that both communities, the southern Ontario and western New York community, really think of WNED as a keystone in this community.

I mean, I think they realize the important role we have, and the fact that we've been able to demonstrate that through, you know, the programs we produce.

But again, I think it's the staff, seeing their development, their growth, their passion to want to try new things, and the ability to go after projects maybe that even bigger markets wouldn't, you know, dare take on.

Then I think it's just a matter of the actual audience itself, the numbers we're seeing on our radio station and on our television station, and how that's grown over the years.

Then I think it's the bigger sort of ways in which we've been able to not only be involved on the air and things we do, but in the community.

There are a lot of things that we do in the community that are not recorded on radio or television, but they involve into our staff in the community, realizing we have to give back.

You know, we ask a lot through our membership campaigns and when people support us, but our staff is very engaged in a number of ways with other things that they're volunteering and doing in the community.

They're showing that they're giving back as well.

Mark: Any disappointments?

Don: I think the thing that is really I guess, I don't know, disappointing for me is that our membership growth.

You know, I talk about our audience growth and it's nice to see.

We have all these viewers and listeners, but our membership really hasn't shown that.

And that's an area where for our size, station, and audience that we reach to not have at least 7%--you know, I'm not asking for 20% or 30%, but not to have at least 7%, the average that most markets do have.

And I think ours is around 4%, maybe 5%.

I guess it's disappointing because I know it wasn't that we had the audience size, I could feel, well, we're not delivering, but we are.

We're doing that in radio, we're doing that in television.

We've got all these new ways to reach people, you know, through these, you know, sort of new technology and using, you know, HD with having three TV channels and three radio channels.

So, we have a much more bigger, you know, sort of wider reach in the communities, but we don't see that in the membership growth.

And I know our staff, our membership staff works very hard in the campaigns.

Mark: Why did you decide to retire at this point of your career?

Don: Well, you know, a lot of people are surprised when I tell them I'm going to be 70 in May of '21.

You know, a lot of people think I'm younger than that.

They don't know what it takes in the morning to have all that Advil to get me out of bed.

But I just think, you know, at that age, there are just a number of things I want to do with my time.

I'm really interested in playwriting and screenwrites and writing, and I just think there's some things there that creative edge of things I'd like to see take place.

Hopefully, you know, with the station supporting it maybe.

But I also think it's the opportunity to really spend more time with my family.

I have two grandchildren who I love dearly.

And you know, I want to have more time with them to travel and do things that I haven't been able to do 'cause this job is not a nine to five job.

And you know, with my wife.

I'm sure that she's looking for more quality time with me, and I owe that to her.

You know, I, you know, was thinking the other day that usually, you know, we only have dinner together maybe twice a week, you know?

Because I'm so busy with other activities or things that I'm doing in a community or--and I don't kind of--I take her out to dinner where it's an event, you know?

It's not the quality time there.

And I think, you know, with my daughter, I think she was very supportive of knowing the career that I had chosen and being supportive, but you know, I'd like to try to give back to her and the grandchildren.

And I want to travel, you know?

And I really want to get my golf handicap down as well, so that'll give me more time to do that as well.

Mark: So, why is the capital campaign so important to you?

What will it be funding?

Don: Yeah, it's really our future.

When you really think about, you know, we keep talking about productions, but it's new productions and the capacity of equipment that will have to be, you know, here in this building to make sure we're delivering the quality of the expectation and delivering it on the various sorts of platform opportunities, of streaming it and using it digitally.

And you know, the ways in which that equipment that we have to have in place that complements, you know, these productions.

You think about the opportunities of how we engage our community with our programs, and the sort of outreach of the community that we have to establish.

I mean, we just don't want to be on air sort of delivery.

I mean, we have to put our hands around this community with people, and time, and effort through our educational sort of outreach into the school systems.

Those aren't things you usually see, you know, on air, but they're happening, you know, behind the scenes.

But there's a whole delivery side of that opportunity, being able to meet those needs on the platforms that we serve our audiences on.

And then you think about the endowment.

The endowment is our future.

We have a $24 million endowment.

Now, it really should be $40 million endowment because that's our seed core for the future.

I mean, we've got to have security there in case there is, you know, a major, you know, need, you know, that we have in the building, you know, in relationship to, you know, the roof, or the piping, or the air conditioning, or the master equipment that, you know, functions at the computer sites and everything that we do.

And that's your sort of, you know, life saving opportunity to make sure that if something did go wrong, if we get cut by the federal government or state, you can use your endowment from its growth to maintain your operations, so you're not cutting staff or letting people go.

'Cause we've built a great operation here with people, with their experience and opportunities to serve this community.

And endowment's all a part of that, and that's why having a strong, you know, endowment secures our future.

Mark: So, it will wrap up by the time you leave, or will it be continuing past?

Don: I'm hoping it will wrap up before I walk out the door July 1, you know?

But I think if it doesn't, I think, you know, hopefully there won't be much more to raise, and hopefully we can do that maybe over the next six months after.

But you know, I feel like we're so close now, just probably $4 million we need on the US side, and then about $1 million, you know, on the Canadian side that we need to raise.

But it's got to get done, and hopefully it will.

Mark: When you talk about projects, I'm hearing something about "Reading Rainbow?"

Don: Right, yeah.

"Reading Rainbow" has been an icon.

I mean, if you think about, you know, over 250 awards this program has received, you know, 26 Emmys, a Peabody Award.

And so, we've been asked to recreate "Reading Rainbow," reimagine it for our future, so we've been spending a lot of time with the creative side, you know, working hand in hand with PBS who would love to see that program produced.

Literacy is such an important element of education, and that program had led the nation under, you know, literacy and the sort of programs that have come out of that that are used in the classroom.

Not only for entertaining off air, but actually with lesson plans, you know, that are used, you know, in daycare centers and 1st, 2nd grades.

And so, and that continues to be used, but they're old programs.

And so, PBS realized that we've got to take a new look at how we produce that program and re-envision its future, 'cause it's a program that has an opportunity to be produced right out of Buffalo and using, you know, Toronto as another sort of staging area for it.

So, it'll have a regional feel, whereas before it was produced out of New York City, it wasn't produced from Buffalo.

So, in this way, it'll be more localized and regionalized for our community.

Mark: What are you going to miss the most?

Don: Oh.

Well, clearly the staff.

I've grown with some great friendships, you know, in this organization.

And again, as I mentioned earlier, they've been so supportive of imagining our future and really collaboratively working to make it happen.

And then I think the board.

You know, the boards that I've worked with over the years, just fascinating people.

You know, some of the biggest community leaders being on our boards.

And then I think of the board chairs that I've worked with over the years.

I mean, I think I reflect a little bit of all of them, you know?

All of them have been so courteous in committing their time, but so good at helping me grow as a CEO.

And all of them have had outstanding careers.

And you know, they've given me I think a real opportunity to use their experiences to help guide the station, and have been great mentors and just great friends.

Then I think it's just a matter of, you know, the community board's a part of western New York and southern Ontario.

I mean, I've enjoyed serving those boards because of, you know, either the directors or, you know, boards that have just fascinating sort of missions and needs in the community.

And I know I can't serve them all like I've had in the past, but I'll miss those friendships and those opportunities as well.

Mark: Will you be leaving Buffalo to be with your family?

Don: No, this is home now.

I mean, even though, you know, I'm from Pittsburgh and Marilyn's from Philadelphia, we both decided when it was past five years that we really love Buffalo, we love this community, we love the can-do sort of attitude.

We love the Bills, though I still love the Steelers.

You know, we just love the community atmosphere.

There's a I guess you would call it a sort of loving spirit here.

You know, people really do get along.

They care about the community, they want to make it better.

I think they understand sometimes we are an underdog 'cause we don't have the major corporations, that we have to find ways to get it done.

And I like, you know, being a part of that 'cause of my background in community development.

I think there are some things that I can help there that can make a difference, but this is home, and it'll be home for a long time.

Mark: Very good.

Any final comments?

Don: Well, again, I just want to thank everybody who's taking the time to watch the program, and thanks for all your support over so many years.

And I've grown.

And again, if I could just really reinforce the importance of supporting this organization, to increase its membership base, which is vital for its future, to make this capital campaign a dream come true for me and for this station and for this community.

And just continue to support it in any way you can, either by financial sorts of ways, volunteering.

You know, our volunteers again are a big asset.

I'm going to miss them.

Should've mentioned them as well as being somebody who I've really gotten to know through their support and hours they give this organization.

But it's been a great ride, and I'm grateful that 23 years have been spent here and have really been something I'm so proud of, so proud of.

Mark: Well, you've been a trailblazer in Buffalo, nationally, internationally with Canada.

You've contributed so much to public broadcasting.

You'll be missed, and we thank you, thank you so much.

Don: Thank you, Mark.

I've enjoyed it, thank you.

Mark: Don Boswell is president and CEO of Buffalo-Toronto Public Media.

I'm Mark Scott, thank you so much for watching.

female announcer: You can make Don's wish for a successful capital campaign a reality.

Go to wned.org/capitalcampaign to learn more about Giving Back, Looking Forward.

Thank you.

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