>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR & CO..

HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.

>> IN MANY CASES, THE FRIEND IS WORSE THAN THE FOE, IN TERMS OF TRADE.

>> TRUMP'S WAR ON ALLIES.

NO CORNER OF THE WORLD IS SPARED.

HOW TO HANDLE A DESTABILIZING AMERICAN PRESIDENT.

I ASKED THE FORMER LEADERS OF FINLAND AND COLUMBIA.

>>> AND, -- >> WE'VE GOT POSTA.

>> IT HAS TO BE RICE, APPARENTLY.

>> A BALM FOR TROUBLED TIMES.

THE CONVERSATION WITH THE STARS OF A FEEL-GOOD FILM, WHO IS NOT TRYING TO TELL US ANYTHING.

>>> PLUS, THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WANT TO SHOP, AND ALL THEY HAVE GOTTEN OUT OF WASHINGTON IS A CHECK.

THAT IS THE TRUTH, AND WE HAVE TO ACKNOWLEDGE IT.

>> RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT, FORMER U.S.

AMBASSADOR TO JAPAN, RAHM EMANUEL, TELLS WALTER ISAACSON WHY HE IS NOT DONE WITH PUBLIC SERVICE YET.

>>> AMANPOUR & CO. IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR, THE SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM , THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS FAMILY CHARITABLE TRUST.

THE FILOMEN M. DGOSTINO FOUNDATION.

SEATON J, MELVIN.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG DID JEFFREY KATZ, AND BETH ROGERS, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION, FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I AM CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

LET DOWN BY OUR OLDEST ALLY, THAT IS HOW YOU PRESENT URSULA VON DER LEYEN REACTED TO TRUMP, IN IMPOSING SOME OF THE HIGHEST ADDITIONAL TARIFFS ON EUROPE, AMOUNTING TO 20%.

HE HAS HIT CHINA WITH -- AND EVEN SLAPPED THE POOREST COUNTRIES WITH THESE PUNITIVE MEASURES.

AS GOVERNMENTS FROM THE AMERICAS TO ASIA PONDER THEIR RESPONSE TO WHAT THEY CONSIDER ECONOMIC WARFARE, MANY, ESPECIALLY ALLIES, ARE HAVING TO DEAL WITH THE FALLOUT AND DEMANDS OF AMERICA FIRST ON CIVIL LIBERTY, AND OFTEN BRUTAL DEPORTATIONS, THE RULE OF LAW, AND A 180 DEGREE TURN ON WHO IS AN ALLY AND WHO IS AN ADVERSARY.

MY FIRST GUESTS TONIGHT HAVE A VERY FIRST LEADERSHIP.

SHE KNOWS THE THREAT POSED BY RUSSIA ALL TOO WELL.

AND, AND SANTOS IS THE FORMER PRESIDENT OF COLUMBIA, WHO WON THE NOBEL PEACE PRIZE IN 2016 FOR HIS ROLE IN BRINGING THE COUNTRY'S DECADES LONG CONFLICT TO AN END.

HE IS ALSO CHAIR OF THE ELDERS AND ORGANIZATIONS OF SENIOR STATES PEOPLE AND THAT PROMOTING HUMAN RIGHTS, AND THEY JOIN ME NOW FROM NEW YORK.

WELCOME TO BOTH OF YOU.

I JUST NEED TO ASK YOU THIS QUESTION THAT EVERYONE IS TRYING TO GRAPPLE WITH.

FIRST TO YOU, PRIME MINISTER, MARIN.

WHAT YOU SAY ABOUT EUROPE BEING SLAPPED WITH THESE HUGE TARIFFS, AND WHAT YOU THINK IS GOING TO BE THE RESULT?

>> FOR DECADES, WE HAVE BEEN BUILDING A MULTILATERAL SYSTEM, INTERNATIONAL COOPERATION AND AIMING TO FREE TRADE, AND NOW WE ARE ENTERING THIS WORLD WHERE LUNG ALLIANCES HAVE BEEN BROKEN OR SHATTERED, OR SHAKEN IN MANY WAYS BETWEEN THE U.S. AND EUROPE, AND THESE TARIFFS AGAINST, NOT ONLY EUROPE, BUT ALL OVER THE WORLD, AND ENTERING AN AGE WITH TRADE WARS.

IT'S TELLING US A VERY DIFFERENT STORY THEN WE WERE BUILDING FOR A LONG TIME.

FROM THE EUROPEAN PERSPECTIVE, I WOULD SAY IT WOULD BE VERY IMPORTANT TO STAY UNITED.

I THINK EUROPEAN COUNTRIES ARE NOT DISCUSSING TOGETHER HOW TO ENCOUNTER THESE TARIFFS.

WHAT WILL BE THE MEASURES THAT EUROPE AS A HOLE WILL TAKE, AND I THINK THERE WILL BE A LOT OF DISCUSSIONS.

DO WE WANT TO GO THIS PATH THAT TRUMP HAS CHOSEN, OR WOULD THERE BE SOME OTHER RESPONSE TO THIS?

I THINK THAT IT WOULD BE VERY WISE TO ALSO SEE, A COUPLE OF DAYS, HOW THINGS WILL EVOLVE, AND THEN MAKE JOINT COMMON DECISIONS AT THE EUROPEAN LEVEL AND NOT BY NATION TO NATION.

I THINK TRUMP ALSO AIMS TO HAVE BILATERAL NEGOTIATIONS, NOT TO NEGOTIATE WITH THE WHOLE EU.

>> IT'S A BIT OF A DIVIDE AND CONQUER.

PRESIDENT SANTOS, I WANT TO ASK FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, BECAUSE ONE OF THE FIRST CRISES, I GUESS YOU WOULD CALL IT, SHORTLY AFTER PRESIDENT TRUMP'S INAUGURAL WAS WITH COLOMBIA, WHEN HE INSISTED ON SENDING PLANE LOADS OF DEPORTEES IN SHACKLES.

THE CURRENT PRESIDENT WAS FURIOUS.

HE BARRED THE PLANES FROM LANDING.

TRUMP THEN SLAPPED A 25% TARIFF ON COLOMBIA.

ANYWAYS, ALL THESE THREATS, ET CETERA, AND THEN YOUR PRESIDENT WALKED THE SITUATION BACK AND THESE TARIFFS WERE NOT PUT ON.

FROM THAT PERSPECTIVE, AS THE FORMER COLOMBIAN PRESIDENT, WHAT DO YOU THINK YOUR COUNTRY AND THE AMERICAS HAVE LEARNED ABOUT PRESIDENT TRUMP, AND HOW DO YOU ADVISE DEALING WITH IT?

>> WELL, THAT INCIDENT WITH THE COLOMBIAN PRESIDENT SHOWED US THAT IS NOT THE WAY TO DEAL WITH TRUMP, OR WITH ANY PRESIDENT.

THEY STARTED INSULTING EACH OTHER, AND THEN, THEY USED THE METHODS THAT SHOULD BE USED FROM THE BEGINNING, WHICH IS, DIPLOMACY, PRIVATE DIPLOMACY AND DIALOGUE.

THAT IS THE WAY TO SETTLE THINGS, TO IMPROVE RELATIONS, NOT BY USING TWEETS AND INSULTING EACH OTHER.

THAT IS THE FIRST LESSON THAT WE LEARNED FROM THAT INCIDENT, AND, IN GENERAL, I HAD THE OPPORTUNITY OF BEING PRESIDENT WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP ALMOST FOR TWO YEARS.

AND, WE USED PRIVATE DIPLOMACY TO SETTLE THE DISAGREEMENTS THAT WE HAD, AND I THINK THIS IS THE WAY THAT IT SHOULD BE DONE, AND WHAT WE NEED RIGHT NOW IN THE WORLD IS MORE DIALOGUE.

MORE COOPERATION.

THE TARIFFS, THERE IS A LATIN AMERICA, FOR 30 YEARS, DID EXACTLY WHAT TRUMP ANNOUNCED, WHICH IS, THE SO-CALLED IMPORT SUBSTITUTION POLICY THAT WAS LED BY AN ARGENTINIAN ECONOMIST.

THAT WAS A COMPLETE FAILURE.

THAT IS WHY BACK IN THE EARLY 1990s, ALL OF LATIN AMERICA WAS VERY ENGAGED IN NEGOTIATING THE CREATION OF THE WORLD TRADE ORGANIZATION, BECAUSE THE IMPORT SUBSTITUTION POLICY WAS A FAILURE.

WE HAD EXISTENTIAL THREATS, THAT ARE INCREASING.

THE DOOMSDAY CLOCK SHOWED US HOW WE HAVE BEEN GETTING CLOSER AND CLOSER TO DOOMSDAY, AND WE NEED TO COOPERATE AND COOPERATION IS BASED ON TRUST, AND ON CONSTRUCTIVE DIALOGUE, AND THAT IS WHAT WE NEED RIGHT NOW.

>> BECAUSE YOU BRING THAT UP, YOU ARE IN NEW YORK TO GIVE AN ADDRESS TO THE UNITED NATIONS ON THAT KIND OF ISSUE, ON DIALOGUE, ON PEACE, ON CONFLICT RESOLUTION.

SO, TELL ME WHAT YOU ARE GOING TO TELL THE U.N. WHAT IS YOUR VISION OF IT?

AT A TIME WHEN, HONESTLY, THERE DOES NOT SEEM TO BE THAT THERE IS ANY SPACE FOR DIALOGUE, IT'S NOT JUST TRUMP, BUT HE IS THE MAIN LEADER, THE BULL IN THE CHINA SHOP.

EVERYWHERE ELSE, YOU SEE WARS AND VERY LITTLE DIALOGUE.

>> WELL, UNFORTUNATELY, THE MULTILATERAL SYSTEM IS BEING WEEKEND.

WHAT WE ARE SEEING OUR COUNTRIES NOT ABIDING BY THE RULES THAT THEY HAD ESTABLISHED, AND WE NEED TO THEN REFORM THE SYSTEM, NOT DO AWAY WITH THE SYSTEM.

WE NEED TO REFORM IT THROUGH DIALOGUE, AND THIS IS WHAT ALL THE COUNTRIES, NOT ONLY THE RICH, POWERFUL COUNTRIES, BUT ALL THE COUNTRIES SHOULD DO.

ENGAGE IN A REFORM DISCUSSION ABOUT HOW TO MAKE THE WORLD ORDER MORE APPLICABLE TO TODAY'S WORLD, BECAUSE IT IS A REALITY THAT THE WORLD ORDER THAT WE ARE HAVING NOW WAS BASED OR IS BASED ON A WORLD THAT WAS DIFFERENT, 50, 60, 70 YEARS AGO, BUT WE NEED TO REFORM IT, NOT TO ABOLISH IT.

>> PRIME MINISTER MARIN, IS IT DIFFERENT?

YOU STILL HAVE COUNTRIES LIKE RUSSIA.

IT USED TO BE CALLED THE SOVIET UNION.

IT WAS THREATENING YOUR BORDER BACK THEN, AND IT CONTINUES TO THREATEN YOUR BORDER, AND IT CONTINUES TO PROSECUTE A MASSIVE WAR IN EUROPE.

HOW DO YOU SEE IT, IN TERMS OF TAKING THIS FORWARD, AND OF COURSE, THIS PEACE DIALOGUE THAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT IS IN HONOR OF A FORMER FINNISH PRESIDENT, WHO IS WELL KNOWN FOR HIS EFFORTS TO BRING PEACE.

BUT, HOW DO YOU SEE IT, FOR INSTANCE.

IT IS RIGHT IN YOUR FACE IN EUROPE, AND THERE IS NO END IN SIGHT.

>> LIKE MANY PEACE BUILDERS HAVE BEEN SAYING FOR A LONG TIME, YOU DON'T MAKE PEACE WITH YOUR FRIENDS.

YOU MAKE PEACE WITH YOUR ENEMY.

OF COURSE, THERE IS ALWAYS ROOM FOR NEGOTIATING DIPLOMACY, TRYING TO ACHIEVE PEACE, BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT WE NEED TO BE WEAK.

THAT MEANS THAT WE NEED TO SHOW LEADERSHIP AND TAKE ACTION AND HAVE THE COURAGE TO ALSO LEAD.

I THINK THIS AGE, WHERE THE MULTILATERAL SYSTEM IS BEING QUESTIONED AND CHALLENGED, AND EVEN BY SOME, WHO WANT TO BREAK THE WHOLE SYSTEM THAT WE HAVE BEEN BUILDING, THIS IS AN AGE WHERE EUROPE MUST SHOW LEADERSHIP, TO STAND BY THE VALUES THAT WE BELIEVE IN AND THE MULTILATERAL INTERNATIONAL COOPERATION AND SYSTEM WE HAVE BEEN BUILDING.

FROM A SMALL COUNTRY PERSPECTIVE WITH A LONG BORDER WITH RUSSIA, OVER 1300 KILOMETERS, ENTERING A WORLD WHERE WE DON'T HAVE COMMON RULES AND OBEY THOSE RULES THAT WE HAVE SET TOGETHER SEEMS VERY FRIGHTENING.

WE ARE AND WE HAVE BEEN ENTERING THIS AGE OF STRONGMEN THAT WANT TO LEAD BY FORCE.

ALSO, USING MILITARY FORCE, AND I THINK THAT THERE IS ALSO HOPE.

WE CAN ALSO ACT AGAINST THIS TREND OR THIS PHENOMENON.

WE DON'T HAVE TO ACCEPT THAT THIS WOULD BE IN AN OF MULTI- LATERAL SYSTEMS, BUT WE NEED COURAGE AND LEADERSHIP, AND RUSSIA CAN ALSO RIGHT THIS WRONG NOW.

>> LET ME FOLLOW UP, BECAUSE YOUR CURRENT PRESIDENT, ALEXANDER STUBB, WAS IN THE UNITED STATES.

HE HAD A BIG ROUND OF GOLF AT A LOT OF TALKS WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP, AND TALKING ABOUT RUSSIA AND UKRAINE, HE SAID, I THINK WE ARE VERY MUCH IN A SITUATION WHEREBY THE AMERICANS ARE RUNNING OUT OF PATIENCE WITH PUTIN FOR UNDERSTANDABLE REASONS, AND I THINK THAT IS GOOD NEWS FOR THE PEACE PROCESS.

I WANT TO ASK BOTH OF YOU.

FIRST YOU, SANNA MARIN.

PUTIN WAS THRILLED, TRUMP GAVE HIM EVERYTHING, VERBALLY.

EVEN IN THEIR FACE-TO-FACE TALKS WITH HIS MAIN ENVOY AND ON THE PHONE, IT SEEMS LIKE HE WAS REALLY -- THE AMERICANS WERE ALIGNING WITH PUTIN'S VIEW OF THIS WAR.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF WHAT YOUR PRESIDENT SAID?

HOW DO YOU THINK AMERICA MIGHT CHANGE AND SHOULD CHANGE IN ORDER TO HAVE A SUCCESSFUL NEGOTIATION TO END THE WAR?

>> WELL, I THINK THAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, THE U.S.

HOLDS MANY KEYS TO ALSO INFLUENCE THE END OF THE WAR.

UNLIKE THE ACTIONS WE HAVE SEEN NOW, THE REAL REACTION, AND THE ACTUAL REACTION SHOULD BE THE OPPOSITE.

I THINK TRUMP AND THE U.S. SHOULD LEVERAGE PUTIN, NOT GIVE HIM THINGS HE WANTS.

I DON'T THINK THAT WILL RESULT IN ENDING THE WAR.

I THINK PUTIN WANTS TO CONTINUE THE WAR, AND THE ONLY WAY TO END THE WAR IS, ACTUALLY, STRENGTHENING THE UKRAINIAN EFFORT TO DEFEND THEMSELVES.

GIVE THEM ENOUGH WEAPONS, ENOUGH FINANCIAL AID AND OTHER AID AS WELL, TO MAKE SURE THEY HAVE THE STRONGER POSITION IN NEGOTIATIONS, AND THE LEVERAGE WITH RUSSIA AND WITH PUTIN.

THAT WOULD RESULT IN REAL PEACE NEGOTIATIONS, AND REAL, LASTING PEACE THAT WOULD NOT BE SHATTERED WITHIN A COUPLE OF YEARS AHEAD, LIKE WE HAVE SEEN MANY TIMES.

I THINK THAT TRUMP HAS THE KEYS, BUT HE HAS TO USE THEM AND LEVERAGE PUTIN, NOT GIVE HIM THINGS FOR FREE.

>> THAT IS INTERESTING.

I WAS GOING TO ASK YOU, PRESIDENT SANTOS.

LEVERAGE IS A VERY IMPORTANT MATTER COULD IF YOU HAVE IT, YOU HAVE TO USE IT PROPERLY.

PRESIDENT TRUMP IS ALWAYS TALKING ABOUT HAVING LEVERAGE, AND SOMEBODY ELSE DOES NOT HAVE THE CARDS AND HE DOES.

GIVEN YOUR EXPERIENCE, WHAT WOULD YOU SUGGEST IN THESE INTRACTABLE SITUATIONS, WHETHER IT IS RUSSIA, UKRAINE, OR WHETHER IT'S THE CURRENT TERRIBLE WAR IN THE MIDDLE EAST BETWEEN ISRAEL AND HAMAS WITH THE LEVELING OF GAZA AND THE MOST COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT ON THE ACTUAL CIVILIANS, RATHER THAN ON DEFEATING HAMAS?

DO YOU SEE ANY WAY OUT OF THAT?

>> WELL, ONE OF THE GOOD THINGS ABOUT PRESIDENT TRUMP IS THAT HE IS DISRUPTIVE, IN THE SENSE THAT HE TAKES THE INITIATIVE TO SIT DOWN AND TALK, AND AS THE FOUNDER OF THE ELDERS, NELSON MANDELA USED TO SAY, THE MOST POWERFUL WEAPON IS TO SIT DOWN AND TALK.

IF HE USES HIS LEVERAGE IN A CORRECT WAY, TO BRING PEACE TO FORCE RUSSIA TO SIGN ON EQUITABLE AND SUSTAINABLE PEACE.

IF HE IS ABLE TO FORCE THE SITUATION IN THE MIDDLE EAST TO HAVE PEACE, BASED ON THE ONLY SOLUTION THAT HAS BEEN PUT ON THE TABLE, WHICH IS A TWO STATE SOLUTION.

THEN, THAT WOULD BE A POSITIVE STEP FORWARD, BUT IT DEPENDS ON HOW YOU USE THAT LEVERAGE.

THAT YOU WILL GET RESULTS, AND I HOPE THAT THOSE RESULTS WILL, IN THE END, BE POSITIVE.

SOMETHING THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS SAID, THAT I HOPE HE FOLLOWS THROUGH ON, IS THAT HE IS INTERESTED IN SITTING DOWN AND TALKING WITH RUSSIA AND WITH CHINA ON NUCLEAR DISARMAMENT.

THE RISK OF A NUCLEAR WAR RIGHT NOW IS INCREASING TREMENDOUSLY.

AND, THE ONLY WAY TO AVOID A NUCLEAR INCIDENT IS TO SIT DOWN AND TALK ABOUT HOW TO CONTROL THE NUCLEAR ARSENAL OF THE DIFFERENT COUNTRIES.

IN THAT WAY, IF THIS DISRUPTION IS CHANNELED IN THE CORRECT DIRECTION, THEN, WE CAN HAVE POSITIVE RESULTS.

IF IT IS CHANNELED, OF COURSE, IN THE WRONG DIRECTION, WE COULD HAVE VERY BAD RESULTS.

>> I'M NOT GOING TO ASK YOU WHICH WAY YOU THINK IT'S GOING, BUT THINGS DON'T LOOK GREAT FROM HERE, AND FROM TODAY, ANYWAY.

PARTICULARLY, ON THE ISSUE OF PEACE.

JUSTICE MATTERS.

TODAY, HUNGARY'S PRIME MINISTER VIKTOR ORBAN, WHO IS HOSTING THE ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER, BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, HAS PULLED HIS COUNTRY OUT OF THE ICC.

YOU WERE BOTH SIGNATORIES TO IT.

SANNA MARIN, WHAT DO YOU SAY ABOUT THAT?

WHAT KIND OF A SIGNAL IS THAT TO THE SERIOUSNESS OF TRYING TO PURSUE PEACE?

I FORGOT TO SAY THAT THE ICC HAS ISSUED AN ARREST WARRANT FOR BENJAMIN NETANYAHU AND OTHERS, OF RELATED WAR CRIMES OVER THIS WAR.

>> OF COURSE, IT'S NOT A GOOD SIGNAL.

IT'S A BAD SIGNAL, AND I THINK IT'S VERY IMPORTANT WHEN WE ARE SEEING WARS, CONFLICT ARISING IN THE WORLD, WE SHOULD NOT SEND A MESSAGE THAT WE ARE NOT HOLDING ACCOUNTABLE THOSE, WHO ARE COMMITTING WAR CRIMES, CRIMES AGAINST CIVILIANS.

THAT ACCOUNTABILITY, IT'S VERY IMPORTANT, AND IT'S VERY IMPORTANT, ALSO, FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF HEALING ONE'S NATION AFTER BEING BRUTALLY ATTACKED OR COMMITTED CRIMES AGAINST.

IT'S NOT A GOOD SIGNAL, AND I THINK THERE WILL BE DISCUSSIONS WITHIN THE EUROPEAN UNION OF HUNGARY'S POSITION.

VIKTOR ORBAN'S ACTIONS, LIKE THERE HAVE BEEN, MANY TIMES, BUT IT IS ALSO IMPORTANT TO HAVE THAT TABLE TO DISCUSS AND ENGAGE AND, TRYING, OF COURSE, EVERY EUROPEAN MEMBER COUNTRY TO RESPECT THE INTERNATIONAL RULES THAT WE HAVE ALL COMMITTED TO.

>> WE COULD GO ON FOR SO MUCH LONGER.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING WITH US.

PRIME MINISTER, SANNA MARIN.

PRESIDENT SANTOS OF COLUMBIA.

THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>>> NEXT, A FEEL-GOOD FILM THAT IS NOT STRICTLY FOR OUR TIMES, BUT IS A BOMB, NONETHELESS.

THE BALLAD OF WALLACE ISLAND FOLLOWS FOLK LEGEND HERBERT McGUIRE, WHO WASHES UP ON THE SHORES OF WHAT HE THINKS IS AN INTIMATE PRIVATE GIG.

JUST HOW INTIMATE BECOMES CLEAR WHEN HE MEETS HIS QUIRKY HOST AND SUPER FAN, CHARLES.

HERE IS A CLIP FROM THE TRAILER.

>> THE GREAT HERB McGUIRE.

COMING ALL THE WAY OUT HERE, WHICH BRINGS ME UP TO THE THORNY ISSUE OF PAYMENT.

>> YOU SAID THERE WOULD BE 100 >> I SAID LESS THAN 100 >> IS IT JUST YOU?

>> YEAH.

>> I AM, LITERALLY, PLAYING ONE GUY.

>> I'M GOING TO HAVE TO TAKE OUT A RESTRAINING ORDER.

>> OH, MY GOSH, I AM SO SORRY.

I'M NOT REALLY USED TO HAVING GUESTS.

SO, WHAT HAPPENED?

WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU PLAYED TOGETHER?

>> I'M NOT THE KIND OF PERSON, TO BE HONEST.

>> I KNOW YOU ARE, BUT WHAT HAPPENED?

>> SHE IS WITH MICHAEL.

>> WHO IS MICHAEL?

>> THE HUSBAND.

>> IN A GOOD WAY?

>> YOU KNEW I WAS COMING, RIGHT?

>> YEAH.

YEAH.

>> THERE IS ANOTHER SURPRISE WAITING FOR HERB.

CHARLES HAS ALSO INVITED HIS FORMER SINGING PARTNER AND LOVER, NELL, PLAYED BY CAREY MULLIGAN.

THE BRITISH COMEDY DUO, TIM KEY AND TOM BASDEN WROTE IT AND ARE ALSO THE FILMS STARS.

IT HAS BEEN 20 YEARS IN THE MAKING, AS THEY TOLD ME WHEN THEY CAME INTO THE STUDIO.

>> TIM, TOM, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

THE BALLASTS OF WALLACE ISLAND TO THE GREAT RICHARD CURTIS HAS SAID THIS IS ONE OF THE GREAT 10 BRITISH MOVIES OF ALL TIME.

>> YES.

THAT WAS INSANE.

>> ONE OF THE FIVE.

I WILL TAKE ONE OF THE 10.

>> ONE OF, IS A PAIN IN THE NECK.

>> HE'S GOT ANOTHER THREE IN THERE.

>> IS IT A RUM COME?

>> THERE ARE ROMANTIC ELEMENTS TO IT, BUT IT'S DEFINITELY NOT A CLASSIC ROM-COM.

IN MANY WAYS, THE ROMANCE IS PROBABLY BETWEEN MINE AND TIM'S CHARACTER, IN A WAY.

CERTAINLY, MY CHARACTER, HERB, AND CAREY MULLIGAN'S CHARACTER, NELL, HAVE A RICH HISTORY.

>> WHAT IS THE HEART?

WHAT IS THE STORY YOU WANT TO TELL, IF IT'S NOT A ROM-COM OR WHATEVER?

>> WELL, WE MADE A SHORT MOVIE OF THIS 18 YEARS AGO, AND SO WE WERE TELLING A VERY SIMPLE STORY OF A GUY THAT COMES TO AN ISLAND, AND THEY DON'T KNOW EACH OTHER, AND THEY ARE FEELING EACH OTHER OUT, AND THEY KIND OF -- I GUESS IT'S ABOUT FRIENDSHIP, REALLY.

OR, SEEING THE BEST IN ONE ANOTHER.

HE UNDERESTIMATES ME.

I AM TOO MUCH FOR HIM, AND EVENTUALLY, WE FIND AN EVEN KEEL.

I FEEL LIKE THAT WAS OUR STARTING POINT FOR THE FUTURE.

WE WANTED TO KEEP ALL OF THAT AND KEEP THIS NICE RELATIONSHIP , AND WE WANTED TO ADD ANOTHER DIMENSION OF EMOTIONAL WEIGHT, WHERE CAREY MULLIGAN'S CHARACTER, NELL COMES IN.

IT ELEVATES IT FROM THE SHORE INTO SOMETHING THAT IS MORE MEATY AS A FEATURE.

>> IT HAS SO MANY BITS THAT ARE FLINGING AT YOU, AND THEY MAKE A REALLY COHERENT HOLE AND THEY MAKE YOU LAUGH, AND THEY MAKE YOU A LITTLE TEARY, BUT THEY MAKE YOU FEEL GOOD.

I JUST WONDERED WHETHER -- I REALIZED YOU DID THE FIRST SHORT 18 YEARS AGO, AND THIS, CLEARLY, WAS NOT DONE AFTER JANUARY 20th, THE INAUGURATION OF TRUMP, BUT IS IT, DO YOU FEEL, THE RIGHT MOVIE FOR THE TIME?

>> WE HAVE HAD A LOT OF PEOPLE GETTING IN TOUCH WITH US SINCE THE FILM CAME OUT IN THE STATES, SAYING THAT THIS WAS THE FILM THEY NEEDED TO SEE.

AND, SAYING, I DID NOT KNOW I NEEDED THIS FILM, BUT THIS HAS BEEN SUCH A CATHARTIC THING FOR ME, TO SEE SOMETHING THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT IS HAPPENING POLITICALLY.

>> SOME OF THEM HUGGED YOU.

>> SOME OF THEM DID.

>> YOU PREMIERED IT AT SUNDANCE.

>> THAT'S RIGHT, WHICH WAS KIND OF OVERWHELMING, AND THAT WAS TWO DAYS AFTER TRUMP'S INAUGURATION.

IT WAS A REALLY TENSE TIME.

>> WE FINISH THE FILM, AND OBVIOUSLY, IT'S KIND OF STRANGE THAT IT WAS NOT IN THE UK TO PREMIERE IT.

WE WERE THERE, ANYWAY, WONDERING HOW PEOPLE WOULD REACT.

PEOPLE WERE SO NICE ABOUT IT, BUT THAT WAS THE MAIN THING THEY SAID.

THIS IS EXACTLY THE FILM.

I THINK IT'S BECAUSE WE WERE NOT TRYING TO MAKE A FILM THAT WAS EXACTLY RIGHT FOR OUR TIMES.

WE WERE TRYING TO FIT IT IN ANYWHERE.

I THINK, MAYBE, THAT IS WHAT PEOPLE WANT.

>> I THINK THERE IS A LOT OF PRESSURE ON FILMMAKERS AND WRITERS, GENERALLY, TO MAKE STUFF THAT IS REALLY RELEVANT, THAT IS REALLY TAPPED INTO A CERTAIN TREND OR IDEA OR CULTURE, AND BECAUSE THIS FILM DOES NOT DO THAT, I THINK PEOPLE HAVE BEEN QUITE SURPRISED AND EXCITED BY SEEING SOMETHING THAT JUST EXISTS COMPLETELY ON ITS OWN TERMS.

>> WE SAW THE TRAILER, BUT I WANT YOU TO TO TELL ME WHAT THIS FILM IS ABOUT.

YOU START.

>> OKAY, SO THE IDEA OF THE FILM IS THAT CHARLES, HERE, IS A SUPER FAN OF A GROUP, AND I AM WEARING THE T-SHIRT.

AND I PLAY HERB McGUIRE, AND CAREY MULLIGAN PLAYS NELL MORTIMER.

HE ARRANGES THE BAND TO COME AND PLAY UP -- A PRIVATE GIG FOR HIM, BUT HE DOES NOT TELL US THAT HE HAS INVITED THE OTHER ONE.

>> AND, HE DOES NOT TELL YOU -- >> -- HE IS VERY LOVABLE, CHARLES.

HE IS VERY SNEAKY.

HE DOESN'T WANT TO RUIN IT BY TELLING US THE WHOLE STORY.

>> IS NOT A BAD GUY.

HE NEEDS IT TO HAPPEN, AND HE THINKS EVERYONE WILL BE HAPPY ONCE THEY ARE THERE.

>> HE NEEDED IT TO HAPPEN FOR PERSONAL REASON, AS WELL.

>> YOU DO FIND THAT OUT LATER IN THE STORY, THAT HE'S GOT HIS REASONS.

>> HE IS GRIEF STRICKEN, AND HE HAS AN ANNIVERSARY COMING UP IT >> THAT'S A BIG PART OF THE FILM.

WHEN YOU FIRST MEET BOTH OF THEM, YOU DON'T KNOW MUCH ABOUT THEM.

PARTICULARLY, MY GUY, YOU MIGHT WRITE HIM OFF AS BEING A BUFFOON, POTENTIALLY.

BUT, AS YOU GO THROUGH, YOU FEEL LIKE HE IS LIKE EVERYONE.

HE HAS HIS OWN STORY AND HIS OWN PAST, AND HE IS A FULLY FORMED HUMAN, WHO IS JUST TRYING TO DO SOMETHING ON HIS TERMS THAT IS QUITE A NICE THING.

>> AND, ALSO PROVIDE HERB AND NELL, THE TWO SINGERS, WITH QUITE A LOT OF MONEY THAT THEY DESPERATELY NEED AT THIS MOMENT.

LET ME PLAY THE FIRST CLIP THAT WE ARE GOING TO PLAY, AND THAT IS, IN FACT, BETWEEN YOU AND NELL.

AS WE SAID, NELL IS PLAYED BY CAREY MULLIGAN.

LET'S CHECK IT OUT.

>> WHAT I'M SAYING, THAT WAS THE FIRST TIME THAT YOU COULD SEE WHERE WE WERE GOING.

WE STOPPED TRYING TO DO LIKE, ROCK.

>> DID YOU JUST SAY ROCK?

WHEN DID WE TRY TO DO ROCK?

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

>> YOU TOLD RICH HAMLIN THAT SHE WANTED TO GIVE YOUR LOVE TO LIBERTY.

>> IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE -- >> I HAVE TO SAY, THIS IS BRILLIANT.

I AM LOVING THIS.

I AM ABSOLUTELY LOVING THIS.

McGUIRE, MORTIMER, EXCHANGING ANTIDOTES.

WHY NOT?

>> AND, YOU REALLY ARE ALL IN.

YOU HAVE BEEN TO AUCTIONS AND YOU BOUGHT HIS OLD GUITARS.

YOU SAY, YOU THINK YOU HAVE A LOCK OF NELL'S HAIR.

>> I THINK I DO.

>> JUST QUICKLY, OBVIOUSLY, CAREY MULLIGAN IS MARRIED TO MARCUS MUMFORD OF MUMFORD AND SONS.

DID THAT PLAY ANY PART IN CASTING HER?

>> NO, CAREY WAS AT THE TOP OF OUR LIST IS THE BEST POSSIBLE FIT FOR NELL.

AND, SHE CAN SING VERY WELL.

♪GIVE ME YOUR LOVE, GIVE YOUR LOVE TO ME ♪ >> AND YOU SING AND PLAY TOO?

>> YEAH, THAT WAS ME.

BUT, MARCUS WAS VERY HELPFUL WHEN IT CAME TO GETTING SOME THINGS ABOUT THE MUSIC RIGHTS, AND WHEN WE STARTED RECORDING THE MUSIC, MARCUS WAS VERY HELPFUL.

>> YOUR LIFE, ALSO, IS HAPPENING AROUND THIS ATTEMPT TO GET THE BAND TOGETHER AGAIN.

YOU TELL NELL THAT HERB IS COMING, BUT YOU DON'T TELL HERB, SO HE IS SURPRISED, AND THERE IS AN OFF-AGAIN, ON-AGAIN SITUATION.

SOMEBODY STORMS OFF IN A HUFF IN A RAINSTORM, THIS OR THAT.

NO SPOILER ALERTS, BUT YOU ALSO ARE TRYING TO ASSUAGE YOUR GRIEF, AND THERE IS A POTENTIAL, POSSIBLE, NEW LOVE INTEREST COMING YOUR WAY, POTENTIALLY, WHO YOU TELL HIM TO GET A MOVE ON.

>> SODAS NELL, IN FACT.

>> YEAH, THEY ARE BOTH TRYING TO MOTIVATE CHARLES TO MAN UP.

>> I THINK MY LIFE HAS SLOWED TO A STOP SINCE MY LOSS I HAD, AND SO, I KIND OF PRATTLE AROUND AND GO TO THE SHOP VERY REGULARLY.

YOU GET THE IMPRESSION MAYBE HE HAS SEEN THIS GIRL A LOT, LIKES THIS GIRL, BUT YEAH, THAT'S WHAT HE GETS FROM THESE TWO.

HE WANTS THE MUSIC, BUT EVERY TIME HE GOES TO THE SHOP WITH ONE OF THESE, THEY ARE DESPERATELY TRYING TO NUDGE HIM JUST A LITTLE BIT IN HER DIRECTION.

SHE IS PLAYED BY SEAN CLIFFORD.

>> WHO IS THE SISTER OF FLEA BAG.

THIS IS SUCH A DIFFERENT ROLE.

>> YEAH, WE ARE KIND OF OBSESSED.

WHEN WE WATCHED THE MOVIE, I JUST LOVE IT WHEN THEY ARE GOING TO THE SHOP.

THE SHOP HAS A CHARACTER OF ITS OWN, AND THE SCENES ARE LIGHT.

>> LITERALLY, EVERYTHING IS LOST IN TRANSLATION.

NELL COMES FROM AMERICA AND SHE IS ASKING FOR REESE'S CUPS, OR REESE'S PIECES, OR WHATEVER THEY ARE, AND THE SHOP OWNER HAS ZERO IDEA.

>> SHE GOT SOMETHING CLOSE.

>> YEAH, LIKE PEANUTS.

THEN, YOU SCREW UP HIS PHONE, IN THE WATER, AND YOU WANT RICE, AND THE SHOP OWNER GIVES YOU PASTA AND RICE PUDDING.

IT IS FUNNY.

I'M NOT DOING IT JUSTICE, BUT IT'S CUTE.

I WANT TO PLAY ANOTHER CLIP, AND THIS IS HERB AND NELL REALIZING HOW OBSESSED YOU ARE.

>> NO, I GOT THAT AT AUCTION.

IT'S THE ONE YOU RECORDED WAY BACK WHEN.

>> OH, WOW, YOU ARE FUN.

>> IN FACT, HERB, IF YOU DO GET A SECOND, I WOULDN'T MIND GETTING YOUR PAW PRINT ON THAT, PLEASE.

>> DO YOU HAVE ANYTHING OF MINE?

>> YEAH.

>> WHAT IS IT?

IS IT CREEPY?

>> IT'S HAIR.

YEAH.

IT'S A LOCK OF YOUR HAIR.

>> HAIR?

OH, MY GOD.

>> WAS THAT EVEN TRUE IN THE FILM?

DID YOU HAVE A LOCK OF HAIR?

>> WE THOUGHT WE DID.

YEAH, I SOMEHOW BOUGHT SOMETHING -- I THINK ON eBAY YOU CAN GET PEOPLE'S HAIR.

I IMAGINE YOUR HAIR IS OUT THERE ON eBAY.

>> I IMAGINE.

[ LAUGHTER ] >> I THINK I COULD BE A GOOD CO- STAR IN THIS.

LAUGHS ASIDE, ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY ANYTHING ABOUT THE GOOD OLD DAYS?

NOSTALGIA, CONNECTING TWO THINGS THAT HAVE BEEN RUPTURED, IN THIS CASE, NINE YEARS AGO?

>> I THINK THAT IS A BIG PART OF THE FILM.

ALL THE CHARACTERS ARE, IN THEIR OWN WAY, STUCK IN THE PAST, OR SLIGHTLY ADDICTED TO A PART OF THEIR LIFE THAT WAS JUST REALLY WONDERFUL AT A TIME WHEN THEY WERE YOUNGER AND MORE HOPEFUL, MORE POSITIVE, MAYBE.

AS THEY GOT OLDER AND MORE JADED, THEY LOOK BACK TO THAT TIME, AND I THINK THE FILM IS ABOUT ALL OF THESE CHARACTERS IN DIFFERENT WAYS, RECOGNIZING THE NEED TO MOVE ON, AND RECOGNIZING THAT THINGS HAVE CHANGED, AND THEY CAN'T GET BACK THE THINGS THAT THEY DON'T HAVE ANYMORE.

WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THE RELEVANCE NOW, THAT IS A THEME IN THE FILM THAT PEOPLE HAVE BROUGHT UP.

IT IS SOMETHING THAT THEY REALLY -- A STORY LINE THAT REALLY MEANT A LOT TO THEM, AND SOMETHING THAT FEELS LIKE IT IS MORE RELEVANT THAN WE REALIZED.

THE TREND FOR NOSTALGIA NOW HAS BECOME QUITE OVERWHELMING.

THIS IS A FILM, WHICH IS, ITSELF, NOT NOSTALGIC, BECAUSE IT'S A NEW FILM, BUT IT'S ABOUT NOSTALGIA.

>> IT IS SEPARATED FROM CONSTANTLY BEING ON YOUR SMART PHONE, CONSTANTLY BEING ATTACHED TO THE INTERNET.

>> HERB'S PHONE GETS RUINED IN THE FIRST COUPLE SECONDS OF THE FILM.

IT IS ABOUT PEOPLE, WHO HAVE NO CHOICE, BUT TO ENGAGE.

>> I DON'T THINK IT WAS EVER ENTIRELY THE PLAN.

OBVIOUSLY, THESE THEMES WERE COMING THROUGH, BUT IT WAS BY FLEW, REALLY.

THE MORE WE HAVE TALKED ABOUT THE FILM SINCE WE MADE IT, THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT WE HAVE DONE.

WE WENT BACK TO A PERIOD OF 18 YEARS AGO WHERE WE MADE THE SHORT FILM, AND WE HAVE ALL SEPARATELY FOR 18 YEARS, LONGED TO GO BACK TO THAT TIME.

>> JUST AS YOU ARE SPEAKING, IT REMINDS ME THAT EVERYONE IS TALKING ABOUT ADOLESCENCE, THE FILM ABOUT TOXIC MASCULINITY AND THE PRESSURES ON CHILDREN, ON THEIR PARENTS AND SMART PHONES AND THIS AND THAT AND THE INTERNET, SOCIAL MEDIA.

THIS IS A REALLY HEARTWARMING AND NOT OFTEN SEEN FILM ABOUT A CLOSE MALE FRIENDSHIP.

I THINK THAT IS UNUSUAL TO SEE THESE DAYS.

>> I THINK IT, MAYBE, IS, WHICH IS KIND OF MAD.

IT IS AN UNUSUAL THING TO SAY.

>> IT'S NOT GETTING THE EXPOSURE.

>> WHEN WE STARTED WRITING, WE WERE WORKING TOGETHER FOR YEARS.

WE STARTED WRITING SKETCHES AND I THINK WE DID NOT TEND TO WRITE SKETCHES THAT HAD A LOT OF POISON OR NASTINESS IN THEM.

FOR SOME REASON, ALTHOUGH IT IS QUITE COUNTERINTUITIVE, WE WOULD WRITE SKETCHES THAT WERE A LOT OF PEOPLE GETTING ON, WHICH SHOULD REALLY WORK.

PEOPLE GETTING REALLY EXCITED ABOUT MAKING PICKLES, AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

WHEN WE STARTED MAKING LONGER THINGS, WE WENT FORWARD WITH THAT.

WE HAVE A VERY PRICKLY RELATIONSHIP IN THE FILM, BUT WE WANTED THAT THING TO HAPPEN.

>> WE WANT YOU TO ROOT FOR THE FRIENDSHIP IT >> YOU ARE ROOTING FOR THE FRIENDSHIP, AND THE FRIENDSHIP IS BLOOMING, DESPITE YOUR GRUMPINESS AND YOUR WEIRDNESS AND ALL THE REST OF IT.

TALKING ABOUT WRITING TOGETHER, DID YOU WRITE THE MUSIC?

>> NO, I WROTE THE MUSIC.

>> ARE YOU A MUSICIAN?

>> YOU TELL ME.

>> WOW!

COOL.

>> I WRITE IT ON THE GUITAR.

>> YOU PLAY THE GUITAR?

>> YEAH.

>> OKAY, I THOUGHT YOU HAD LEARNED IT FOR THE ROLE.

>> WHEN WE FIRST STARTED DOING IT WE WERE TRYING TO WORK OUT THE SHORT FILM, HOW TO MAKE A REALLY BELIEVABLE MUSICIAN ON SCREEN.

I WAS TALKING TO HIM, WE NEED TO GET SOMEONE INVOLVED.

HE WAS LIKE, I WILL DO THAT.

ANYWAY, WE DID NOT GET ANYONE INVOLVED.

HE DID IT.

BASICALLY, EVERYTHING.

♪SOMETIMES WHEN YOU SLEEP, YOU LOOK LIKE YOU ARE ON THE BOTTOM ♪ ♪SOMETIMES WHEN YOU SMILE, I CAN SEE HOW YOU WOULD HAVE LOOKED AS A CHILD ♪ >> ONE OF THE THINGS I DID PICK UP WAS THAT YOU MET AT CAMBRIDGE FOOTLIGHTS, WHICH IS THE FAMOUS PLACE AT CAMBRIDGE UNIVERSITY, THE DRAMA SPACE, WHERE SO MUCH SUCCESSFUL BRITISH COMEDY AND DRAMA AND ALL THE REST OF IT HAS EMANATED FROM.

HOW DID YOU MEET THERE?

WHICH ONE OF YOU WAS THERE AND WHICH ONE OF YOU WAS NOT AT CAMBRIDGE?

>> VERY CLEVER.

>> THIS IS VERY GOOD BUT HE WAS AT CAMBRIDGE STUDYING.

HE IS A HIGH FLYER.

HE IS A VERY INTELLIGENT MAN, AND I WAS LIVING THERE WITH MY PARENTS.

>> LIVING IN CAMBRIDGE?

>> YEAH.

I PRETENDED, MOMENTARILY, THAT I WAS AT CAMBRIDGE, IN ORDER TO GET INTO THE COMEDY SCENE, WHICH IS THE FOOTLIGHTS.

IT WAS OPPORTUNISM.

>> AND, AND OPPORTUNITY.

>> THAT IS HOW I GOT INTO IT.

I MET HIM.

I MET A MAN CALLED ALEX YVONNE.

MARK WATSON.

ALL THESE PEOPLE, WHO WE STILL WORK TOGETHER AND SEE EACH OTHER.

>> ANY TIPS?

HOW DID YOU GET IN?

DID YOU HAVE A FAKE I.D.?

>> I MIGHT HAVE BLOWN IT FOR EVERYONE ELSE.

>> SECURITY IS A BIT TIGHTER THESE DAYS.

>> KNOW WHERE YOU ARE STUDYING.

KNOW WHICH COLLEGE YOU ARE AT.

HE IS STUDYING RUSSIAN LITERATURE.

>> HE TOLD ME HE WAS AT A CERTAIN COLLEGE, AND HE HAD TO WAIT THERE ALL DAY.

>> I TOLD HIM I WAS AT CITY SUSSEX COLLEGE, AND THAT WE HAD A REHEARSAL IN CITY SUSSEX COLLEGE, SO SOMEONE ELSE IN THE CAST MET ME AT THE PORTER'S LODGE, AS THEY CALLED IT, AND WE WALKED.

I DIDN'T KNOW WHERE I WAS GOING, AND I ENDED UP WALKING AGAINST A WALL FOR A BIT LIKE A CARTOON CHARACTER.

>> THAT'S GOOD.

THAT'S A GOOD STORY.

>> IT WAS WORTH DOING IT.

>> THIS IS WONDERFUL, THE BALLAD OF WALLACE ISLAND.

TIM, TOM, THANK YOU SO MUCH, INDEED.

>>> THE DEMOCRATS ARE BRUISED AND BATTERED, BUT STARTING TO FIGHT BACK.

THERE HAS BEEN WIDESPREAD FRUSTRATION THAT ITS NATIONAL LEADERSHIP HAS NOT FORMULATED A MORE EFFECTIVE OPPOSITION TO TRUMP, BUT ALSO, NEW WIND IN THEIR SALES FROM A NEW WIN IN WISCONSIN THIS WEEK, AND CORY BOOKER'S RECORD-BREAKING SPEECH TO CONGRESS ON ALL THE ILLS THEY SEE COMING FROM TRUMP.

ONE PARTY'S STALWART IS POSITIONING HIMSELF AS THE ONE TO PUSH BACK HARD AGAINST TRUMPISM.

RAHM EMANUEL PRETTY WORKED FOR PRESIDENT CLINTON, WAS PRESIDENT OBAMA'S CHIEF OF STAFF, MAYOR OF CHICAGO, AND MOST RECENTLY, AMBASSADOR TO JAPAN, AND HE IS JOINING WALTER ISAACSON.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE AND RAHM EMANUEL.

WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

THIS WEEK IN WISCONSIN, WE SAW THE MORE PROGRESSIVE CANDIDATE FOR THE SUPREME COURT BEAT THE ONE THAT WAS SUPPORTED BY ELON MUSK AND DONALD TRUMP.

DO YOU THINK THIS IS A BIT OF A TURNING POINT IN TRUMP'S POPULARITY?

A PUSHBACK ON HIM, AND HOW DO YOU ANALYZE IT?

>> OBVIOUSLY, THEY MADE ELON MUSK THE TARGET FOR DEMOCRATS, AND REPUBLICANS MADE THEIR ARGUMENT FOR TRUMP THERE CALLING CARD, AND THEY LOST, NOT JUST IN A CLOSE STATE.

THEY LOST NOT CLOSE, BY 10 POINTS.

THAT IS A BLOWOUT BY ANY IMAGINATION ANYWHERE IN THE COUNTRY IN POLITICS, ESPECIALLY, IN A BATTLEGROUND STATE LIKE THAT.

IF YOU LOOK A LITTLE BELOW THE HOOD, IS THE DEPTH OF THE DEMOCRATS ISOLATED TO MILWAUKEE AND MADISON?

THIS WAS A STATEWIDE VICTORY.

IT WAS NOT A COUNTYWIDE VICTORY, SO THAT IS SIGNIFICANT, AND THE MONEY FOR THE SUPREME COURT IN WISCONSIN WAS SIGNIFICANT.

>> DESPITE THE VICTORY FOR THE DEMOCRATS IN WISCONSIN, A LOT OF PEOPLE, INCLUDING A LOT OF DEMOCRATS, HAVE SAID THAT THE DEMOCRATIC BRAND HAS BECOME SOMEWHAT TOXIC.

IS THERE SOME TRUTH TO THAT?

AND, WHY?

>> I WOULD TAKE THE WORD, SOMEWHAT, OUT.

IT IS TOXIC.

I DON'T THINK YOU HAVE TO PUT A DISCLAIMER ON IT.

THE WAY I WOULD SEE IT IS, THERE ARE TWO WORDS THAT DEFINED THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY FOR THE PUBLIC.

WEAK AND WOKE, AND NEITHER ONE OF THEM ARE FAVORABLE.

THAT HAS BEEN A PROCESS OF THE DEMOCRATS, IDENTIFYING BEING SEEN AS WEAK IN A PERIOD OF TIME , WHERE PEOPLE PREFER STRENGTH, AND WOKE BEING NOT JUST WOKE ON THE CULTURAL LEFT SET OF ISSUES, BUT FOCUSED ALMOST ENTIRELY IN DROWNING OUT EVERYTHING ELSE YOU WANT TO SAY.

THAT IS WHY THE BRAND HAS TAKEN MORE THAN JUST A BRUISING.

IT IS DOWN IN THE DUMPS.

THE WAY I DESCRIBED THIS, WALTER, AND THE WAY I LOOK AT THIS IS, IF YOU ARE ANTI-TRUMP IN THIS MOMENT IN TIME, THAT IS GOING TO GET YOU POLITICAL POINTS.

AND, TRUMP'S JOB APPROVAL IS NOW DOWN TO 42, AND NO REASON THAT IT DOES NOT CONTINUE TO SLIDE AS THE ECONOMY CONTINUES TO SLIDE.

AS HE FOCUSES MORE ON GREENLAND THAN THE PRICE OF GROCERIES.

THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, TO GIVE US MORE THAN A VOTE AGAINST TRUMP, AN AFFIRMATIVE VOTE FOR THE DEMOCRATS.

WE NEED AN AGENDA BUILT ON WHAT I BELIEVE IS THE COST OF THE AMERICAN DREAM.

IT HAS MADE IT UNAFFORDABLE FOR THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

YOU AND I GREW UP IN A TIME WHERE OWNING A HOME, SAVING FOR YOUR RETIREMENT, SAVING FOR YOUR KIDS EDUCATION, AND HEALTHCARE AND A HOLIDAY, THAT IS THE BULWARK, THE PILLARS OF THE AMERICAN DREAM.

YOUR KIDS, MY KIDS, THEY WILL HAVE ACCESS TO IT, BUT, IF ONLY 10% OF THE CHILDREN IN AMERICA HAVE ACCESS, IT'S NOT THE AMERICAN DREAM, AND IT'S UNAFFORDABLE AND WE SHOULD BE ANGRY ABOUT IT.

THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WANT A SHOT AND THEY WANT THEIR CHILDREN TO HAVE A SHOT AT THE AMERICAN DREAM, AND ALL THEY HAVE GOTTEN OUT OF WASHINGTON IS THE SHAFT, AND WE HAVE TO ACKNOWLEDGE IT.

>> BUT, THE PARTY HAS BECOME PERCEIVED -- IN FACT, THERE IS TRUTH TO THIS PERCEPTION, AS A PARTY OF THE ELITES AS OPPOSED TO THE WORKING CLASS.

HOW DO YOU GET TALKING TO REGULAR, ORDINARY WORKING PEOPLE AGAIN?

>> THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION.

A LOT OF TIMES, WALTER, AND YOU WERE THERE.

I AM A DISCIPLE.

MY POLITICAL MATURATION HAPPENED WORKING FOR THE CLINTON '92 ELECTION.

A LOT OF PEOPLE FOCUSED ON JAMES CARVILLE'S, OH, IT'S THE ECONOMY, STUPID.

TO HAVE THAT ECONOMY PIECE HEARD, YOU HAD TO HAVE A WHOLE SERIES OF ISSUES ON WHAT I WOULD CALL THE CULTURAL PLANE ON PRIME, DRUGS, IMMIGRATION, X- ACTO -- ET CETERA.

YOU HAVE TO BE RIGHT, NOT JUST WITH THEIR TOLERANCE, BUT NOT LET THAT TOLERANCE BECOME -- YOU LOOK AT DEFUNDING THE PUT -- POLICE, OR OPEN BORDER POLICY, NOBODY IS ILLEGAL, THEY ARE ONLY UNDOCUMENTED.

A WHOLE HOST OF ISSUES.

THEY WILL TURN THE VOLUME DOWN AND PUT US ON MUTE.

YOU WILL NEVER GET TO THE ECONOMIC ARGUMENT IF YOU ARE CULTURALLY ADRIFT AND OFT HERE.

IF YOU GO BACK 30 YEARS IN POLITICS, WHICH I HAVE, WE USED TO BE A PARTY OF LIBERALS, MODERATES AND CONSERVATIVES, WHO MADE UP MORE, SELF IDENTIFIED DEMOCRATS.

AFRICAN AMERICAN, HISPANIC.

THE MORE WE HAVE BECOME LIBERAL, WHITE, COASTAL, HIGHLY EDUCATED, THOSE MODERATES AND CONSERVATIVES WERE WALKING OUT THE BACK DOOR BECAUSE THAT'S NOT THE PARTY THEY IDENTIFIED WITH ANYMORE, AND IT WAS NOT JUST ECONOMICS.

IT WAS BEING RIGHT ON A SERIES OF ISSUES THAT THEY, THEN, WERE OPEN TO A WHOLE SET OF OTHER ARGUMENTS.

IF YOU GO THROUGH THE TWO MOST SUCCESSFUL PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATES SINCE FRANKLIN DELANO ROOSEVELT, ELECT TOUR LEE, PRESIDENT CLINTON AND BARACK OBAMA BOTH GET ELECTED AND GET RE-ELECTED, AND THAT IS THE TEST OF ELECTORAL SUCCESS.

NOT ONE TERM, TWO TERMS.

THEY TOOK ON, WHETHER IT WAS PRESIDENT OBAMA ON THE ISSUE OF FATHERHOOD AND BEING A RESPONSIBLE FATHER, AND HE WAS ATTACKED FOR BEING A DEPORT ARE IN CHIEF, OR PRESIDENT CLINTON, WHEN HE WAS RUNNING, DEALING WITH THE ISSUE OF CRIME.

DEALING WITH THE ISSUE OF WELFARE, AND SAYING, ENDING WELFARE AS WE KNOW IT, THE VERY INFAMOUS SPEECH THAT HAS BECOME A SHORTHAND FOR WHAT I AM DISCUSSING, WHICH IS THE SISTER SOULJA MOMENT.

PRESIDENT CLINTON STOOD UP FOR MORE PROGRESSIVE WING OF THE PARTY.

GIVE ME THE SISTER SOULJA MOMENT YOU WOULD SAY RIGHT NOW.

>> WHEN YOU ARE RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT, YOU HAVE TO PROJECT THREE QUALITIES.

STRENGTH, CONFIDENCE AND OPTIMISM.

YOU CAN'T ALLOW ONE INDIVIDUAL CONSTITUENCY TO LOOK LIKE THEY ARE BIGGER THAN THE REST OF THE TEAM.

AND, ONLY ONE PERSON IS THE COACH AND THE QUARTERBACK, AND THAT IS THE PRESIDENT.

TO ME, WHEN YOU SAY PICKET, IT'S KIND OF A CALCULATION.

I WILL TELL YOU, HAVING BEEN THERE, SPECIFICALLY, FOR PRESIDENT CLINTON, IT WAS NOT LIKE -- THE MOMENT ARRIVED AND THERE WAS A DECISION TO MAKE, GIVEN THAT WE WERE RUNNING ON THE BASIC THEORY OF THE CASE, THAT PRESIDENT CLINTON'S CANDIDACY.

THE ARGUMENTS CALLING FOR KILLING PEOPLE THAT WERE WHITE, FOR RETRIBUTION FOR WHAT WAS GOING ON POST RODNEY KING.

IT PRESENTED ITSELF IN THE SAME WAY THAT OTHER MOMENTS, WHETHER IT WAS ON PARENTING, FATHERHOOD, OBAMA PRESENTED THEMSELVES.

I HAVE SPOKEN AS IT RELATES TO -- I THINK WE HAVE LOST FOCUS ON, WHY DOES THE PARENTS AND THEIR KID TO A SCHOOL?

IT'S NOT BECAUSE, OH, I'M HAPPY THAT IT'S NOT GEORGE WASHINGTON ANYMORE, WHATEVER THE NAME OF THE SCHOOL IS, OR BATHROOM AND LOCKER ROOM DISCUSSION.

YOU PICK A NEIGHBORHOOD OR COMMUNITY.

THAT'S A GOOD SCHOOL FOR YOUR CHILD.

THAT'S WHERE WE SHOULD BE LASER FOCUSED, CONSISTENT WITH RAISING READING AND MATH SCORES, BUT MORE PORTLY, NOT GET SIDETRACKED INTO A DEBATE THAT IS FRIVOLOUS, NOT TO THE PARENTS OF THE CHILD, BUT IT DOES NOT DOMINATE THE ENTIRE AGENDA OF EDUCATION.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT IT, WALTER, TAKE A LOOK AT WHAT'S HAPPENING.

WE ARE HAVING ARGUMENTS ABOUT BATHROOMS AND FOUR WEEKS AGO, THE NAPE SCORES CAME OUT, WHICH IS THE NATIONAL REPORT CARD, AND IT CAME AND WENT THAT WE HAVE HAD THE WORST READING SCORES IN 30 YEARS.

DO YOU SEE A LARGE DEBATE GOING ON IN THE COUNTRY?

DO YOU SEE GOVERNORS, MAYORS LEADING THAT DEBATE NOW?

THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE NOT GOING TO GIVE YOU A LOT OF CREDIBILITY IF THEY DON'T HEAR YOU SPEAKING ABOUT SOMETHING THAT IS REALLY INTIMATE TO THEM, WHICH IS, THE QUALITY OF THE EDUCATION THEIR CHILD IS GETTING.

>> WHY IS IT THAT THE EDUCATION IS GOING DOWN?

WHY ARE CLASSROOMS GETTING WORSE?

>> THERE ARE SOME BASIC, COMMON THEMES THAT I THINK ARE VERY IMPORTANT.

ONE IS, MORE TIME IN THE CLASSROOM ON TOPIC.

THE TIME IN THE CLASSROOM ON TOPIC IS ALSO BASICS.

THERE IS ALSO, WHETHER IT IS THIRD-GRADE ON READING OR FRESHMAN YEAR OF HIGH SCHOOL ON MATH, THERE ARE EARLY SIGNS WHERE YOU GET THE CANARY IN THE COAL MINE, AND YOU HAVE TO THEN, EARLY ON, DO EARLY INTERVENTION WITH ONE-ON-ONE TUTORING, AND THE LAST THING, AND THIS IS WHERE I GOT MY CHOPS WHEN I WAS MAYOR.

CHICAGO, WHEN I BECAME MAYOR, HAD THE SHORTEST SCHOOL DAY AND SHORTEST SCHOOL YEAR IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

IF WE JUST WENT TO AVERAGE, BY WAY OF EXAMPLE, KIDS IN EASTON, GOT THROUGHOUT THEIR LIFETIME, 2.5 MORE YEARS OF EDUCATION, JUST BECAUSE THE CLASS TIME WAS MORE THAN A KID IN CHICAGO.

WE ADDED AN HOUR AND 15 MINUTES FOR ELEMENTARY KIDS.

45 MINUTES FOR HIGH SCHOOL KIDS.

TWO WEEKS TO THE YEAR, 10 MORE DAYS.

THAT EQUALED TWO YEARS FROM KINDERGARTEN TO HIGH SCHOOL.

JUST BY ADDING THAT TIME.

KIDS, POST-COVID, R, BASICALLY, TRIPLE ABSENTEE RATES THAN THEY ARE PRE-COVID.

I THINK WE NEED A NATIONAL NUMBER.

YOU GET NORTH OF 7% AS A CHILD FOR THE SCHOOL YEAR, YOU ARE NOT MATRICULATING FROM FOURTH AND FIFTH GRADE.

FORGET ABOUT IT.

WE NEED A NATIONAL, ABSOLUTE STANDARD.

PARENTS AND KIDS, HAVE MADE A FOUR DAY SCHOOL.

KIDS NEED TO BE IN SCHOOL, AT MINIMUM, FIVE.

YOU NEED EARLY INTERVENTION, YOU NEED MORE TIME ON TOPIC, AND YOU NEED TO GO BACK TO THE BASICS OF TEACHING READING, WRITING AND ARITHMETIC.

THAT IS NOT COMPLICATED.

POOR KIDS NEED, ACTUALLY, MORE THAN YOUR CHILDREN AND MY CHILDREN.

IT IS JUST A FACT.

>> DID WE MAKE A MISTAKE ON THE COVID LOCKDOWNS IN SCHOOLS?

>> YES, 100%, DEMOCRATS HAVE TO STOP LOOKING AT THEIR SHOES HOPING NOBODY NOTICES.

THERE IS DATA THAT KIDS IN RED STATES, I HATE USING THAT, THEY GOT BACK TO SCHOOL BETTER.

WHILE THEY SAW DECLINES, THEY DID NOT SEE DECLINES LIKE THEY SAW IN BLUE STATES, AND WE PERMITTED A TWO YEAR LOCKDOWN WHEN IT WAS VERY EVIDENT -- AND I UNDERSTAND, WITHIN THE SWIRL OF THE FIRST FOUR MONTHS, YOU ARE TRYING TO FIGURE OUT UPSIDE FROM DOWN.

WE DID THIS ARGUMENT, FOLLOW THE SCIENCE.

THE SCIENCE WAS PRETTY CLEAR AND WE DECIDED NOT TO FOLLOW SCIENCE BECAUSE OF POLITICS.

>> PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS BEEN TALKING THIS WEEK ABOUT TARIFFS, TRYING TO IMPOSE IT.

DO YOU THINK TARIFFS MAKE SOME SENSE NOW, IN TERMS OF AN ECONOMIC POPULISM, TO BRING MANUFACTURING BACK TO THE UNITED STATES?

>> NO.

NOT AS IT'S BEING EXECUTED BY THE PRESIDENT.

LOOK, AS TARIFFS GO UP, YOUR 401(K) AND YOUR LIFE SAVINGS GO DOWN.

AND, TWO, TARIFFS ARE ABOUT TO GO UP, AND EUROPEAN COUNTRIES, THE CANADIANS ARE RETHINKING WHETHER THEY WANT TO BUY U.S. DEFENSE WEAPONS.

THAT MEANS THE MANUFACTURING JOBS IN THE UNITED STATES WILL DECLINE.

PRESIDENT XI JINPING HAS MADE A MISTAKE, ECONOMICALLY, IN CHINA.

THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU WERE READING THREE MACKEREL FOUR MONTHS AGO ABOUT THE ECONOMY IN CHINA.

FOR THE FIRST TIME, BECAUSE OF WHAT HE DID TO THE PRIVATE SECTOR, WHAT HAPPENED WITH THE HOUSING BUBBLE HE BURST, HE ISOLATED CHINA WITHIN THE REGION.

HE LOST EUROPE BECAUSE OF HIS ALIGNMENT WITH RUSSIA.

WE HAD CHINA AS GOOD AS CORNERED AS WE HAD IN A DECADE.

NOW, CHINA'S ECONOMY IS SEEN AS THE ENVY, AND AMERICA IS SEEN AS THE PEOPLE, MONEY IS FLOWING FROM AMERICA AND THERE IS LESS INVESTMENT.

I THINK THE TARIFFS HAVE BEEN ONE OF THE WORST YOU HAVE SEEN.

THE DEMOCRATIC SENSIBILITY WAS BEING SEEN AS WEAK AND WOKE.

I WOULD SAY THAT THE REPUBLICANS UNDER TRUMP ARE CORRUPT.

BETRAYAL.

THE THING THAT IS HAPPENING IS NOT ONLY THE TYPE OF POLITICAL, ECONOMIC, FINANCIAL CORRUPTION GOING ON, BUT ALSO THE BETRAYAL.

HAVING TOLD YOU I WOULD FOCUS ON THE PRICE OF GROCERIES, I'M FIXATED WITH THE PRICE OF GREENLAND.

I THINK THAT IS BECOMING EVER MORE APPARENT.

>> YOU SAY THAT OUR ALLIES AROUND THE WORLD -- YOU JUST CAME BACK FROM BEING AMBASSADOR OF JAPAN -- CAN'T TRUST US ANYMORE.

ONE OF THE BIG THINGS THEY TRUSTED US ON WAS DEFENSE, AND THE NUCLEAR UMBRELLA WE WOULD PROVIDE.

WHAT DO YOU SEE THE CONSEQUENCES OF THIS BEING?

>> IF YOU THINK NONPROLIFERATION WAS EXPENSIVE, YOU ARE GOING TO GET STICKER SHOCK WHEN IT COMES TO PROLIFERATION.

GERMANY IS ALREADY THINKING, OF ACQUIRING A NUCLEAR, INDEPENDENT NUCLEAR UMBRELLA FOR THEMSELVES.

POLAND IS THINKING ABOUT IT.

OUTSIDE OF FRANCE, ENGLAND AND RUSSIA -- IN THE REGION I JUST CAME FROM, CHINA HAS NUCLEAR WEAPONS.

INDIA HAS NUCLEAR WEAPONS.

PAKISTAN HAS NUCLEAR WEAPONS.

NORTH KOREA HAS NUCLEAR WEAPONS.

WE SPENT A YEAR AND A HALF -- I WAS MORE ON THE MARGIN OF THIS, PARTICIPATING IN ENSURING THAT SOUTH KOREA DID NOT ACQUIRE AND DEVELOP, AND PRODUCE AN INDEPENDENT NUCLEAR CAPABILITY FROM THE UNITED STATES.

SOUTH KOREA.

THERE IS NO WAY NOW YOU WILL BE ABLE TO PREVENT THAT.

NO WAY.

THEY MAY LOOK AT YOU AND SAY, OKAY, NO WAY.

THAT MEANS THE KOREAN PENINSULA, NORTH AND SOUTH KOREA, WILL BOTH HAVE NUCLEAR WEAPONS.

CHINA WILL HAVE NUCLEAR WEAPONS.

AND, THERE IS NO WAY JAPAN WILL LOOK AT THIS, IN MY VIEW AND SAY, OKAY, WE WILL STAY NONNUCLEAR.

IT HAS A HUGE TABOO IN JAPAN.

A HUGE TABOO GOING BACK TO HIROSHIMA AND NAGASAKI, THAT THEY WILL NOT LOOK AT THE REGION, LOOK AT THE UNITED STATES, THEIR TRADITIONAL ALLY AND SIT ON THE SIDELINES.

HOW IT MANIFESTS ITSELF, HOW IT EVOLVES, THAT IS ANOTHER DISCUSSION, AND NOT ENOUGH TIME HERE TODAY.

IN THE REGION, I SEE A PERIOD OF TIME, IF AMERICA CONTINUES TO BE NOT A RELIABLE ALLY, WITH NO CREDIBILITY THAT IT BACKS UP ITS WORD, I SEE A REGION THAT IS GOING TO BECOME EMBEDDED WITH A PROLIFERATION OF NUCLEAR WEAPONS, AND MUCH MORE UNSTABLE.

EVER SINCE THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES HAS BEEN COZYING UP TO PUTIN, TALKING THE WAY HE'S TALKING, DOWN TALKING UKRAINE, LEGITIMIZING THE IDEA OF TAKING LAND MILITARILY, CHINA HAS BEEN MUCH MORE AGGRESSIVE IN THE NAVAL AREAS AROUND JAPAN, AUSTRALIA, AROUND VIETNAM, AND IN THE SOUTH CHINA SEA, THE PHILIPPINES, AND AS RECENTLY AS THE OTHER DAY IN TAIWAN, WITH A ZERO RESPONSE FROM THE UNITED STATES AND ZERO CREDIBILITY OF DETERRENCE.

ZERO.

>> WHEN PEOPLE ASK YOU, WHY DID YOU RUN FOR PRESIDENT?

YOU ALWAYS SAY, I HOPE PUBLIC SERVICE, I AM NOT FINISHED WITH PUBLIC SERVICE AND I HOPE PUBLIC SERVICES NOT FINISHED WITH ME.

TELL ME, WHAT WILL BE THE FACTORS?

WHAT WILL BE THE THINGS YOU THINK ABOUT IN DECIDING WHETHER TO RUN FOR HIGHER OFFICE?

>> I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE WILL BE DISCUSSING AND LIVING AND FIGHTING AND ARGUING AND PUSHING AGAINST TRUMP, AND I DON'T DISMISS THAT, BECAUSE I THINK HE IS A CURRENT, REAL, PRESENT DANGER ON A WHOLE HOST OF FRONTS, BUT I DON'T WANT TO BE THE PERSON ONLY FIGHTING AGAINST TRUMP.

I WANT TO BE FIGHTING FOR THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, AND I WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT IN MY SOUL OF SOULS, I THINK THE THINGS WE DID LIKE BEING THE FIRST CITY THAT IF YOU GOT A B AVERAGE, WE MADE COMMUNITY COLLEGE FREE.

WE EXPANDED EDUCATION TO BOTH KINDERGARTEN AND PRE-K FOR ALL KIDS.

WE MADE IT THAT YOU COULD NOT GET A DIPLOMA FOR HIGH SCHOOL, UNLESS YOU SHOWED US A LETTER OF ACCEPTANCE FROM A COLLEGE, COMMUNITY COLLEGE, BRANCH OF THE ARMED FORCES OR VOCATIONAL SCHOOL.

WE MADE POST-HIGH SCHOOL EDUCATION UNIVERSAL.

I HAVE SOMETHING THAT IS DISTINCT AND DIFFERENT TO OFFER , AND IF I FEEL I HAVE THAT, I WILL MAKE THAT DECISION.

I JOKE SOMETIMES.

I WAS A RAGING MODERATE BEFORE IT BECAME CHIC TO BE A MODERATE.

AND NOW, I DECIDED, THAT IS WHERE I WANT TO BE, PHILOSOPHICALLY.

MAYBE, AT MINIMUM, I WILL MAKE SURE THE PARTY DOES NOT DO A THELMA AND LOUISE AND DRIVE OFF THE CLIFF AGAIN AT 80 MILES AN HOUR.

AND, THE AMERICAN PEOPLE HANG THEIR HAT ON US.

WE'VE GOT TO ANSWER THE CALL.

>> RAHM EMANUEL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>>> FINALLY, WE END THE WEEK WITH SOME ART TO SOOTHE THE SOUL.

HERE ARE SOME BEAUTIFUL IMAGES, PAINTING THE TUSCAN COUNTRYSIDE WHERE SHE LIVES, AND INSPIRED BY TRAVELS IN CHINA, GREECE, AND THE SINAI DESERT.

AND NOW, HER PAINTINGS CAN BE SEEN AT THE THREAT OF COLOR, STUNNING NEW EXHIBITION HERE IN LONDON, WHICH CELEBRATES HER LIFE AND WORK.

SHE IS THE DAUGHTER OF THE RENOWNED ARMENIAN-AMERICAN ARTIST, GORKY, ONE OF THE FOUNDERS OF ABSTRACT EXPRESSIONISM.

SHE SAYS, IN MY PAINTINGS, I'M TRYING TO BE TRUTHFUL.

THEY ARE NOT OF REALITY, BUT OF THE SENSATION REALITY HAS ON MY OWN MIND.

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THANK YOU FOR WATCHING, AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.