♪ >> Welcome to Canada Files .

I'm Valerie Pringle.

My guest today is James Cameron.

Who is a man of extraordinary energy and accomplishments.

An artist and a scientist.

He has directed three of the four top-grossing movies of all time.

Avatar 1 and 2, Titanic, and changed film-making.

He is also a celebrated explorer who has led trail-blazing deep-sea expeditions including more than 30 dives to the Titanic.

And a solo dive to the bottom of the Mariana Trench.

I spoke to him at the Royal Canadian Geographic Society.

>> Valerie: Jim, hello.

>> James: Hello, how're you doing, Valerie.

>> Very well.

There's a great line of Frank Capra's.

Which was, "Only the valiant can create, only the daring should make films, only the morally-courageous are worthy of speaking to their fellow man for two hours in the dark."

>> Valerie: I think this is you!

>> I think that's fair.

That's the mantle or the burden that we have to accept, I think.

...it's a meritocracy.

If people aren't interested in what you're saying, they won't show up.

Then your career doesn't go anywhere.

If people are interested in what you're saying, showing, or how you're entertaining them, they will show up.

But every time you make a new film, you have that sense of how am I going to keep people entertained or reach them, especially emotionally.

That's when you face that blank page and start to write.

I think that's the hardest part of the whole thing.

Everything else is problem solving.

>> But you write, you're an artist.

So you create these worlds then you figure out how to make them come to life.

>> Pretty much, yeah.

I've written everything I've directed.

It starts with an idea that's compelling to me.

Something that I feel needs to be expressed.

Or that's in a area that I feel comfortable in, telling a story.

Some people are natural storytellers.

I think film-makers and writers are people that, if you can't entertain at a dinner table with a story, then you probably shouldn't be a writer.

>> But the other thing-- and I love this line.

It was Bill Paxton said about you.

You love being told that something's impossible.

That you can't do it.

It is actually thrilling to you.

>> Yeah.

That's just...telling me it's impossible is basically threatening me with a good time.

Because to me, I like hard problems.

I like finding other people to work with that like solving hard problems.

I love the comradeship of a team that goes up against a big challenge and prevails in whatever way.

Whether you're building a robotic vehicle to go into the high-pressure regime of the deep ocean.

Whether you're creating a story-- >> An alien mother.

>> A liquid terminator.

>> That was a hard problem.

Because we were right at the bleeding edge of computer graphics and animation...that was in 1990.

Basically.

And we had a little precursor of it in The Abyss .

Where we created the water tentacle, or the pseudo pod , as it was called in the script.

And that was successful.

Then you build--you don't just sort of go completely nuts off the deep end-- you sort of build in stages.

But I always feel I want to be at that cutting edge.

Doing something new and exciting.

>> And you have been-- motion capture...everything.

How have you changed films?

>> Well, I think I was involved in certain kinds of vanguard periods with respect to computer graphics, for example, or CG.

It was right at the edge on that with a lot of people who have since gone on to really expand the tools.

Now you literally can't watch a movie that doesn't have some form of digital visual effect or computer graphics in it.

That wasn't the case when we started down that path.

Again, that's the late 80s, early 90s.

>> Tell me about women because all your protagonists... >> Yes, tell me about women.

Can somebody please explain this to me.

>> But your protagonists through sci-fi, all your movies-- adventure, you know, have all been women.

>> Look, I've spent very little time in my life in therapy.

So I don't know what the psychological underpinnings of that are.

But I strongly suspect it was having a very strong mother, as kind of a role model.

Who was always out doing some crazy courageous thing, joining the Canadian Army Reserve.

Coming home with a uniform and a rifle when no-one had ever discussed that ever .

All of a sudden, my mom is standing there in a uniform.

Like that's kind of cool.

>> There's Sarah Connor in my living room!

>> Exactly.

Or coming home as a nurse.

It'd turned out she'd studied nursing but nobody knew.

She decided to go back to work as a nurse.

I had a prototype.

Then I did The Terminator .

I really admired films like-- Alien came before I did The Terminator .

So here was an example-- not my film, Aliens .

But the film, Alien , Ridley Scott's film.

I thought she's amazing.

That character's amazing.

It just struck a chord with me.

Then I made The Terminator .

That was successful.

I thought, "People aren't doing this."

Women at the time were the girlfriend, the wife, the love interest or femme fatale .

They were all these classic, somewhat sexualizedcharacters.

I can imagine it wasn't interesting for the actresses at that time.

So I just thought I appear to be doing well with this.

Let's do some more.

It always made sense to me.

And no two of them were ever the same.

Mary Elizabeth Mastrantonio's character in The Abyss was completely unlike all the other characters I've done.

I think Ripley is her own thing.

I didn't create her.

I think I expanded who she was.

And what she meant to the world with my film.

So I had good prototypes, both in film and in real life.

>> You're very loyal.

You use people, you know... Bill Paxton, Kate Winslet, even Arnold Schwarzenegger.

You have a team.

>> Yeah well, Arnold is very loyal.

One of the things I've always admired about him is his loyalty-- he's always been loyal to me.

I've always been loyal to him.

I think when you have a good experience with somebody and you come to respect them.

Coming out of the end of that experience, and you're not in some kind of fight.

I never wind up in any long-term beef with any of my actors.

We usually come out of it pretty much respecting each other.

Why not continue?

Then there's somebody you know.

If you're not fast friends--I was very close with Bill Paxton.

We always looked for ways to work together.

But it doesn't have to be that way.

Kate Winslet is a great pal of mine now.

We'll just write each other, try to crack each other up.

>> She'll get back in the water for you.

>> She got back in the water.

She actually loves water.

This is a thing that people don't know about here.

She and her husband are really into board sports and things like that-- kite surfing and all that.

She's actually quite athletic and she loves the water.

I think that's what-- there were two things that got her to make... the choice to be that character for The Way of Water .

And in movie 3 as well-- same character.

One was she loves the water and two, her kids said, "Don't be an idiot.

Be an avatar."

That's the story that she tells anyways.

>> Great line!

It's interesting when you read about making Titanic again, which I was doing before we talked.

Everyone predicted total doom-- that it was the biggest loser movie of all time!

That the analogy of going down was what was going to happen to your movie.

You couldn't take a salary at a certain point.

>> I think the media got a little too happy with their own interpretation of what was happening.

They got a little too happy with the metaphor of the sinking ship.

To the extent that they went beyond the pale .

By actually trying to be the architects of the failure of a film, sight unseen of a foot of the movie.

And I think that was wrong.

>> When you think that you've directed, written three of the four top-grossing films of all time, are you gob-smacked or amazed at how popular they are?

>> Valerie: Does that surprise you?

>> Well look.

I think I'd be stupid to say I was surprised.

Because we go in and spend all this money on the principle that people are going to like the film.

But I don't want that to be confused for a kind of arrogance before the fact.

We're always biting our nails before we release a film.

Audiences and tastes change.

Avatar 2 came out years, more than a decade, after Avatar 1 .

Which was crazy successful but we didn't even predict that success!

It's a strange eco-poise between believing that you have something-- enough to spend a lot of time, energy and somebody else's money on.

Then at the last second, absolute terror that it won't be received well, you know.

And then, it works out.

Because you were actually right the first time.

It's all that second guessing.

Especially in the case of Avatar , there was a lot of nay-saying around that film.

I actually saw a similar pattern to Titanic .

Once people actually saw it, then the film got to work its magic.

But we were definitely judged negatively before the fact.

>> Avatar was personal for you very much, in the message in the world that you wanted to create.

Where did that come from?

Explain that message.

>> I mean I wouldn't want to say it was a message because... >> That sounds too heavy.

>> The old adage, if you want a message, call Western Union.

>> Sorry, bad word.

>> Yeah, but there's definitely a theme or a motif there that I think people do respond to.

I found that to be tremendously encouraging after the film came out, and after its wild success in all global territories.

That people actually did resonate to the message of we are connected to each other and connected to nature.

And nature's worth fighting for.

Because that's what's going to keep us alive.

If we really still have that in ourselves, at a global level, then that's what's going to keep us alive.

Is there enough of it?

It doesn't seem to be really changing the course of events.

We're still overheating, now 1.5 degrees is in our rearview mirror.

2 degrees centigrade is probably where we're going to land.

But who knows.

It could be more than that.

We keep compromising with ourselves.

It's almost like the way addicts talk themselves into the next thing that they need to do.

And it all makes sense in their world but it's completely delusional.

I actually think that's what we kind of are collectively.

But if you can do something that reminds people of that inner voice that says we need to change.

We need to do something.

Then that's at least a step in the right direction.

>> I love the line that is repeated so often in the film, I See You.

Where did that come from?

>> I was literally sitting there thinking up another culture and thinking what would somebody say.

I was visualizing maybe two people from different tribes, or the same tribe, in Africa.

What would the essence of what they said-- whatever the actual word would be, is I see you, you're right in front of me.

Hi, nice to see you.

We say it all the time.

But then I thought what if it was just, I see you.

And what if it suddenly took on other layers of meaning like, I respect you.

I see who you are.

Or in the case the way Neytiri, Zoe Saldana's character, uses it in the first movie.

When Jake returns with the big bird and fulfills the prophecy.

She says I see you with a sense of wonder.

What she's saying is I love you and I see you for the first time for who you really are.

Meaning I see into you, right?

And everybody wants to be seen.

Everybody everywhere just wants to be seen.

Some people become extravagant extroverts to be seen, noticed.

Other people just want to be discovered for who they are and they don't say a damn thing.

But I find that everybody's fascinating.

Everybody's a universe, you know?

This sort of Trump-ian idea that there are winners and losers of the world.

And all the losers aren't even worth talking to.

They're not even worth knowing or caring about, if they die or starve to death or whatever.

It's just so wrong.

From a writer's standpoint, everybody is a universe.

Whether they're rich or poor, whatever.

They've got something that's human in them that's worth listening to.

So I try to live by the ethos that I actually stumbled upon that people responded to.

I thought if people are responding to this, it's for a reason.

>> And you've got Avatars up to number 7 plotted out?

>> I blurted out the other day that I've got ideas for 6 and 7...they've got about a page of ideas.

So let's not read too much into that.

4 and 5 are completely written.

4 is partially shot.

4 and 5 are both completely designed.

And mapped out.

We just have to get to it.

It's like building the transcontinental railroad.

You got to lay the track in sequence.

We're kind of halfway.

>> I love your line that you say, "I'm an explorer at heart.

A film-maker by trade."

>> So I want to talk about your work as an explorer.

>> Thank you.

>> Which began when you were a kid at 14.

>> When you saw an underwater habitat.

>> Sure.

>> At the Royal Ontario Museum and you went, "I'm going to build one of those and I'm going to get in it."

>> Valerie: And you could put it in Chippawa Creek.

>> Yeah, I did all that.

I think exploration is something that starts maybe at the moment of conception.

I think it has to do with your curiousity.

Before I even thought of doing underwater exploration, I was exploring the woods, the local animal population.

I was collecting butterflies, finding snakes, frogs and all kinds of creatures.

It's that scientific curiousity, I think all kids are scientists.

They all want to know how it all works.

Then most of them lose it.

But some stay on that curious pathway for the rest of their lives.

That's what a true scientist is.

There is a distinction between scientists and explorers.

There's a Venn diagram where there's an intersection set where you have scientist explorers.

But some scientists are comfortable solving serious problems in a lab.

Others--explorers have to go out and look with their own eyes.

They gotta go out there, get some dogs, go to the North Pole.

Get in a sub, dive down.

Get in a spacecraft.

...go and be that leading edge--that tip of the spear for the rest of humanity that doesn't have that access, or that privilege really.

To sit on the top of a Saturn 5 rocket and go to the moon.

These are the things that captivated me when I was a kid.

Jacques Cousteau--these guys in their silver wetsuits and diving saucer.

I wanted to be one of those guys.

>> Well you became one of those guys.

>> I became one of those guys.

...I'm kinda..you know the movie, The Life Aquatic with Steve Zissou ?

That was my life for about 8 years.

I kind of left Hollywood.

I took an 8-year sabbatical.

I did a number of deep-ocean expeditions.

Built a lot of vehicles and systems.

Went to incredible amazing places.

Made films about that-- natural history films.

>> Why did exploring underwater appeal to you so much?

Why was that important to you?

>> It's funny.

People ask why is this important to you?

Why do you build a sub?

I never get that question from kids.

Because kids are like, of course you want to explore underwater.

Of course you want to get in a sub.

I think it's keeping contact with that child-like curiousity and sense of wonder, you know?

I think we all make our compromises with the practicalities of life.

And think oh, that's not possible or I couldn't do that.

I've gotta finish college or, now I've got a child.

We all have the things that derail us off that path of child-like wonder.

I've just tried to hold onto that.

>> But you've had a couple of close calls.

One when you were directing The Abyss , and one when you were down by the Titanic.

What did the pilot say, "Oh oh."

>> Yeah, you never want to hear your pilot say, "Oh, oh".

>> Valerie: When you're at the bottom of the ocean.

>> Yeah, well I was in the Deep Sea Challenger, down about 4 - 5,000 metres.

I was filming an octopus that was walking across the bottom.

It was a pearl octopus-- kind of amazing ambulation.

I heard this loud bang!

I realized...something has imploded somewhere on the sub.

It's on film because I'm filming myself the whole time.

I go, "Oh well, I'm still here.

This is a great shot."

>> Well, are you fearless?

>> I don't know about fearless... >> Didn't your kids make you feel like okay, there are a few people I'm responsible for now.

>> Well, I knew they'd be well cared for.

My wife's kind of amazing that way.

She's supported me in all of it.

She's a pilot--I support the things that she does.

She supports the things that I do.

I don't know about fearless.

I'm not claustrophobic clearly.

I think there's a difference between being fearless and having legitimate fears of things and knowing that's what drives the engineering that we do.

To make it safe.

I think it's more of doing the math on risk versus reward.

The reward for me to go to someplace no-one has ever seen, to bring back scientific data, to expand our human consciousness in that way is a risk worth taking.

But it took us seven years to build that sub.

>> The Deep Sea Challenger.

>> Yes... That was seven years of figuring out to do it safely.

To me, that was the challenge, the fun part of it.

>> Then getting seven miles down.

>> There's a moment when you say to yourself-- and it happened to me right after I reached the bottom and I called in and gave them the depth.

I'm sitting there thinking there's a lot of water over my head.

That's a lot of pressure-- 16,500 lbs.

per sq.in.

That's like having a stack of 2 - 3 SUVs on your thumbnail.

But distributed across the entire sphere.

There's a moment where that flashes through your mind.

But I never worried about implosion, per se.

I was worried about other things.

They lose these giant half-mile or mile-long fishing nets.

Eventually they sink, go to the bottom and become ghost nets.

If a submersible ran into a ghost net, there would be no way for it to come back to the surface.

You'd be dead.

So you can't engineer against that.

There are some risks you can't engineer against.

So that's a problem.

But you accept that risk.

Because most of the risks you can engineer against.

Fire, electrical failure, loss of buoyancy control.

All of those things you build in safety systems.

And our sub had layers upon layers of safety and backup systems.

>> Wow.

Was that the most powerful experience, being at the bottom of the Mariana Trench by yourself?

>> It's certainly on my list of Top 10, you know.

>> I can't imagine what the Top 10 list-- >> Well, being at the birth of your children, for example.

Delivering your own children-- I delivered three of our kids myself.

With medical support standing by.

That's a religious sort of experience.

I think of all these as spiritual experiences.

Sometimes it takes you awhile to even unpack what you've done and what it means to you.

My first dive to Titanic-- I wasn't able to unpack it until I was back on the ship.

I was crying in my cabin... because I had deferred it all while I was there on the mission.

Then I realized the impact of where I had been and what I had seen, later when the mission pressure was off.

That happens sometimes too.

>> You still mark the April date every year?

>> Every year.

We have a little email chain of the other-- we call ourselves rivet counters .

You know, the people who know so much about the Titanic they get so nerdy, your eyes roll back in your head after five minutes of talking to us.

We all sort of get around and say, you know-- tonight we're going to raise a glass to the crew, the designer, Thomas Andrews, whatever...is important to you.

Yeah, it's observed every year.

>> But it's such a powerful metaphor.

>> It's a metaphor.

It's an incredibly epic novelistic thing that actually happened.

It's a real event.

It's undeniable.

It happened.

What does it mean?

How does it warn us about plunging headlong into things that we've been warned about.

I think of that metaphor applying to climate change and maybe artificial intelligence and many other things that confront us.

So it always resonates.

>> Why is a vegan diet so important to you?

>> It's interesting.

Being 100% plant-based which I've been for 12 years, with my wife, Suzy, and some other members of our family that we've managed to convince.

Although not our teenagers.

They're still burgers and pizza but they know better.

So it'll kick into gear at some point in their lives.

It's important for a number of reasons.

First of all, health.

But health wasn't my primary reason.

It was environmental.

The footprint of animal agriculture is so great.

The carbon and pollution footprint is so great.

That, just as a thought experiment, if every human being on the world just decided to eat 100% plant-based, we could re-wild 2/3 of the agriculture land that we currently have under cultivation.

...that's a pretty amazing concept.

Now that's not going to happen.

Because of culture momentum, how we were raised and what we've been taught.

Most of which is wrong, by the way--delusional.

100% plant-based diets are much healthier.

You live longer, have more athletic performance and energy.

All of those things.

I felt that from the moment we switched which was 12 years ago.

>> Are you able to say at this point, what you're most proud of?

>> It's tricky.

I'm proud of my kids.

I'm proud of the movies including some that haven't made money.

I'm very proud of my writing on Strange Days , from example.

Most people, that's a footnote.

They can barely even remember.

The Abyss holds up very well-- didn't make a lot of money.

Barely broke even I would say.

Not a huge hit.

But I'm proud of that film.

Definitely happy with the results of the expedition work.

A lot of science was published.

Some nice films were made.

And I got to be physically present, to physically bear witness in places that are astonishing.

Truly astonishing!

When I think back on some of the things that I've seen, looking through the port hole or through my HD camera system, you know, I feel blessed.

Of course, it's not a blessing someone bestows, you bestow it on yourself with a lot of hard work.

But somehow the memory of all the work goes away and you just remember all the highlights.

>> The wonder.

>> It's all about the wonder.

>> The final question we ask is what does being Canadian mean to you?

>> Well look, I'm Canadian-born and bred.

I'll always be Canadian no matter where I go or live.

I'm currently living in New Zealand.

But I think like a Canadian.

I was raised as Canadian.

I'm proud of those roots and whatever the societal influences were to give me the value system that I take out into the world.

And I try to bestow on my children as well.

I could have easily moved back here.

I wound up moving to New Zealand.

Almost a quirk of fate because that's where the visual effects company is that we worked with on the Avatar films.

And that's where our infrastructure was built up.

But to want that value system for your children-- get them out of Los Angelos and Malibu.

Away from all that craziness.

I could have easily come here versus there.

I've done productions and I have businesses and work here in Canada.

I'm proud of Canada for what it accomplishes.

For being relatively small population as a country.

And a lot of hardship being so far north and so spread-out, and so on.

What we accomplish here is quite amazing, I think.

>> Well, we're super proud of you.

>> Well thank you!

>> It's been a pleasure.

>> It's been great talking to you, Valerie.

>> Thank you.

>> We'll be back next week with another episode of Canada Files .

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