♪ >> Valerie: Welcome to Canada Files .

I'm Valerie Pringle.

My guest today is the Right Honourable Jean Chrétien.

Mr. Chrétien spent 40 years in the House of Commons.

Ten as prime minister from 1993 - 2003.

He was born in Quebec, the 18th of 19 children.

And retained the image of the little guy from Shawinigan throughout his very long and successful political career.

He turned 90 this year and is still rated the most popular former prime minister of Canada.

>> Valerie: Mr. Chrétien, hello.

>> Jean: Hello.

>> You always had this persona- the little guy from Shawinigan.

The ordinary guy.

But as you look at your career and all your achievements, you're anything but ordinary.

>> I don't know.

But in life, it's always better to under-sell and over-perform.

I always wanted to be the guy close to the people, go along with them and move up!

It's what apparently I've done.

Was a very interesting life I had and very lucky.

But I was there when the luck came to me.

>> Well, 40 years undefeated in politics.

Politics is hard and longevity is something you can't plan.

What do you think made you such a successful politician?

>> Hard work and luck.

You know you have to be working hard, be there all the time.

Because if you're not there, the luck will bypass you.

...I enjoyed public life.

You know, I wanted to be a politician.

My father wanted me to be a politician.

>> So was it his choice?

>> Yes, I wanted to be an architect.

He said to me, "No, no.

You will never be elected as an architect You go to the law school."

And in those days, when Papa said something, we listened.

So I went to the law school and he got his politician.

>> Well, go back a little bit because you're self-described as a really terrible kid.

Hyperactive, undisciplined... expelled from school.

What turned you around?

>> Mom used to say there's always a black sheep in the family.

Jean will be the one.

But Dad realized I was hyperactive.

And...he loved to have a politician in the family so he started to train me.

>> Well, did you have any dreams then, in terms of political aspirations?

Can I be prime minister... >> No no.

That was not for me.

I wanted to be a politician to please Dad.

After that, I wanted to be a minister.

I thought that the job of prime minister was not to be accessible to me.

Because you know when I became a member of Parliament at 29 in 1963, I could not speak good English.

I had problems with the language.

So I never thought that a guy who does not speak perfect English at 29 could be prime minister of Canada.

I kept my French accent but you know I managed to go to the top.

>> You did.

One of the first things you did-- and it's sort of interesting, I'd forgotten.

You did a private member's bill right away.

To change the name of Air Canada >> ...from Trans-Canada Airways.

>> Yes, first time I was in the news.

And the arguments were quite simple, I would say.

There were 3 TCAs: Trans-Canada, Trans Caribbean, Transcontinental.

TCA is at the bottom of the list.

Air Canada will be at the top of the list.

And because Air Canada and it so happened to be bilingual at the same time.

The day after, I received a beautiful letter from Prime Minister Pearson.

That was my first...goal in the net of politics.

>> I was looking, remembering in 1980, Trudeau made you Minister of Justice, Attorney General of Canada, the minister responsible for the referendum on separatism that was taking place in Quebec.

The repatriation of the Constitution from Great Britain.

The creation of the Charter of Rights and Minister of Social Programs.

Honestly, an impossible task!

>> You know, I didn't want to take that job.

>> No kidding!

>> No.

I said I don't want to do that.

But he said it's where I need you, Jean.

And it was very turbulent in Quebec and I was afraid of that.

We were both sitting at 24 Sussex over the river and the sunset on Quebec and he said it was beautiful.

He said, "Home is burning ...and I need you."

So I said okay, give me the hose.

That was the beginning of all these tasks.

>> The referendum was one thing--the no vote prevailed.

Meaning Quebec would stay in Canada and won.

So that was one thing to deal with.

But the patriation of the Constitution was so complicated.

>> It was a big task because we wanted to have a Charter of Rights.

The provincial governments were not keen to have a national Charter of Rights.

So I had to convince them all.

They participated and we managed to do that.

Of course, when we finished the consultation, both Quebec and Manitoba refused.

But Manitoba signed a week later.

And that is Quebec but it was normal.

Because Claude Charron was one of the ministers that was a kind of very pleasant chap.

I told him.

He said, "Jean, don't expect us to sign on a new Canadian Constitution.

We are separatists.

We want to get out of Canada.

So we will never sign on a new Canadian Constitution."

So I knew it was impossible to have them.

But my thought was perhaps there would be enough pressure for them to collapse.

But in fact, they did not collapse.

They said no.

>> They said no and have never signed.

>> But it's not the same... even in Germany.

Do you know that in Germany, Bavaria never signed the German Constitution?

Not the same...and Germany is working quite well anyway.

The people in Bavaria claim that they are Germans.

>> But when you became prime minister, 1993, what you were dealt at that time was a lot of really bad problems.

The economy was terrible.

Once again, the Quebec separatists were saying we're moving toward a referendum and we'd really like to separate this time.

Those were the issues you were dealing with.

But the economy you took on.

You had a $43 billion deficit.

>> I don't remember.

It was more than that.

You know, the deficit was 6.2% of the GDP and the debt was 72%.

You know, the Financial Times said we were a good candidate to be a third-world nation.

We knew unemployment was 11%.

Inflation, compared to today, was at 11%.

It was not a very pretty picture.

So we took it over.

I said to the Cabinet, "I will fix that.

We might be in government for only one term but I will fix it" >> But every government says oh well, we've got debts and we'll get rid of the deficit.

You got rid of the deficit.

Other people were coming to you for advice on how you did it.

>> They found a reason not to do it.

There's tons of reasons not to do it.

But I said I would do it.

And I was determined to do it.

>> The other really tough thing earlier on--1995, was the Quebec Referendum.

That you had to deal with-- the second one.

Which was so close and so hard.

You were saying I don't want to be the last prime minister of Canada.

>> It was that worrisome.

>> In a way, yes because I had to make it serious.

And in a way, no.

Because if we had lost the referendum, it was not the end of it.

Because the question was completely crooked.

There would have been a lot of problems to resolve, if they wanted to resolve.

They could not have said we're independent.

Look what happened in Spain.

They proclaimed independence, that went nowhere.

And many other places.

...there is some consequences after the vote.

We knew and I knew that every day, I'd ask a clear question, do you want to separate?

They would have had no more than 24% of the vote.

So I could have called myself, a referendum with a clear question.

So solve the question in the future, I passed the Clarity Act.

Where I put the condition that would lead to a negotiation.

Now they will be obliged to ask a clear question.

We permitted the referendum but... before the first and second referendum, we never expected that they would ask some crooked question like that.

Now they cannot do it anymore.

>> For your third term, there was controversy about whether you would stay.

You said you wouldn't.

There were people who were supporting Paul Martin.

You decided to stay.

And it really was your most productive time.

How was that you ended up coming back for a third term and accomplishing many things?

>> I didn't want to be there more than two terms at the beginning.

For one good reason is-- I'd had enough of public life and I wanted to get out and make a bit of money.

Because I'd been a public servant all my life.

You know, my daughter was well married but I had other kids.

And I had not provided-- I thought I could be able to provide something for them if I were to go and work outside of government.

And everybody was asking me to promise to run a third time and I said no.

I said I promised my wife that I will be out.

And I would not be there in 2001 for the election.

Aline got up, moved out, closed and re-opened the door, just half of her body in the room and she shout, "Four more years!"

So she got a standing ovation by all including myself.

So I decided to run a third time.

It was, in fact, the best!

Because I knew it was the last one.

>> You were prime minister during 911.

Which required you to make some tense decisions, about aircraft and planes landing.

Trying to figure out what was going on.

>> Yes, it was a very dramatic day.

But we had to make a quick decision.

There was planes over the Atlantic.

The Americans had decided they would not let one plane land in America.

So the minister of transport was informed and he talked with his deputy and clerk.

He decided, with my concurrence, to permit the planes to land.

He had made, and we made, the right decision as Canadians.

And they landed all over the place.

I was very moved when I went to New York >> ...to see the play there.

>> "Come from Away".

>> I was there with the mayor of Gander.

>> From Newfoundland.

>> ... after that, you know, I had to reassure the people.

That was a very dramatic moment.

The people were scared!

>> I think one of the things you're best known for is saying no to going to Iraq.

Great pressure from America, from the United Kingdom.

It was to find the weapons of mass destruction and get rid of Sadam Hussein.

You stood up, even to people in Canada, to just about everybody and said no, we're not going.

>> Oh no...George talked to me and Tony Blair even more.

George Bush was using the argument that Sadam had weapon of mass destruction.

I had said to them I'm not convinced, with the reports I have.

But these reports, if you want to find in them one conclusion, sometimes you find the path.

But I was not convinced.

I tell them, I said, "Hey if you don't have better proof, you have to have a resolution of the UN and you won't have it."

He didn't have it.

Tony Blair had said to me, "Jean, we have to get rid of Sadam Hussein because he's a terrible dictator."

But I said if we're in the business of replacing the dictators we don't like, why don't we work in South Africa?

Why don't we fix the problem with Zimbabwe--Mugabe, you know?

He has been there quite a long time and they were kind of happy if he were to move.

...but we don't do that.

But he said, "Jean, Mugabe and Sadam it's not the same."

I said of course, it's not the same-- Mugabe has no oil.

He became white and he did not... we have kind of a frozen period after that.

But I like him very much.

I think he was quite good.

I don't like the way he has been treated after that in Great Britain-- he did not deserve it.

>> Was that the greatest example of leadership on your part?

>> It was a decision.

You have to make a decision.

Was it tough?

Yes and no.

I was not convinced they had weapons of mass destruction.

I was not happy with the reason they were going to go there.

When you make a decision, you make it.

Pressure--I lived with pressure all my life.

You have to look at the problem.

You know for me, it was--I was absolutely not convinced that they had a good reason.

It turned out that I was right.

>> I want to ask you about a few people that you've worked with and known.

Just to get your impressions or stories--Nelson Mandela.

>> He was the greatest personality I ever met.

Was such...I remember the first night I met him.

Right here in the Chateau, having dinner with his new wife.

Aline and I.

...we were moved.

We were hesitant.

We were meeting in what in my mind was the most courageous political person I ever met.

Who kept a great sense of humour.

He forgave all the people who kept him in jail for 27 years.

You know, when I named him Honourary Citizen of Canada, when I quit, he sent me a message.

He said, "I am really unhappy because I would not have the occasion to vote for you."

He was the impressive political person I ever met.

>> Queen Elizabeth--you spent many times with the Queen.

Elizabeth, who bestowed on you the Order of Merit.

I think you were the fourth Canadian ever to get it.

>> Yes, the last in 50 years.

She...you know, my humour was helping.

And she loved speaking French with me.

She was speaking good French.

When she could talk with Aline and I, she was practising her French, and the Queen Mother even more.

So it was a different relation, in that way.

I made the joke, "Why, people said, she was speaking French with me?"

I would say because she could not stand my French accent.

But it was not that.

She was a very nice person.

And she liked to have a good laugh once in awhile.

>> Many people would say that was one of your great gifts, a great skill-- your sense of humour.

>> It is extremely useful because the truth dry is difficult to swallow.

But with humour, it is the sugar around it that helps digest it easier.

>> Couple more--Bill Clinton obviously.

>> He was a good friend, Bill Clinton.

He was the president when I became prime minister, for a few months.

And we worked quite well together.

Because we are what we call moderate.

I say that I am the radical centre.

Because you know Liberal is a very unusual name.

In Europe, a liberal is rather to the right.

In US, a liberal is very much to the left.

So he asked me what is a Liberal in Canada.

I say, in Canada a Liberal is, when the people on the left say you are...a right-winger and when the people on the right say you are a left-winger.

You are a good Canadian Liberal Chrétien.

>> So we worked well together.

>> Golfed well together.

>> Oh yes.

You know he comes every summer in Canada for his birthday.

I'm invited and play golf with him.

He comes with some of his political friends.

Louise Penny, a great friend of Hillary Clinton, and I were the only two Canadians there.

>> George W. Bush.

How was your relationship with him?

>> Because you said no to Iraq.

>> ...the press wanted me to have bad relations with him.

I had good relations with him.

He was not complicated.

Bill Clinton always wanted to convince you.

George--you will say white, he will say black, it was fine.

We agree to disagree.

Let's talk baseball and football.

It was relaxing.

He was always on time and pleasant.

>> Tell me about Aline, your wonderful wife who you lost, just a couple of years ago.

You always called her your Rock of Gibraltar throughout life.

>> But you know we met, she was 16 and I was 18-- next-door girl.

She was my first girlfriend.

I was in boarding school and I went to university.

We would write letters, 3 - 4 times a week.

You know, we'd been married 62 years-- we were together 68.

She went in a quiet way, as she was.

But she was very strong.

She was telling me the truth but in a nice way.

We never had any argument--never had a tough period in our wedding.

We were very lucky.

We were genuinely in love for all that period.

And I missed her enormously but what can I do?

>> Are you proud of what you accomplished?

>> You know, I'm grateful to my mom and dad.

Who gave me the desire to be successful.

My mom was a fantastic lady, having 19 kids.

But she was very strong on education.

And as I was--she thought I was to be a big problem, so she took care of me better.

Perhaps more attention than the others.

So to keep me out of trouble and so on.

And Dad gave me the desire to be a politician.

You know, from up there, they must be not unhappy for what they thought, both of them, that I was to be the black sheep of the family.

>> What does being Canadian mean to you?

>> For me, we're a very lucky country.

We're rich and very diversified.

We don't have racial problems-- we have problems like any country.

But we don't have big ghettos or the same animosity that exists in other countries.

We have some people who feel that they don't have what they should get.

And it is normal, sometimes it's true.

We always try to meet these gaps--you know it's difficult.

But we're a democracy that functions well.

We can change government without any problems.

We have very little-- we don't have any political violence.

And...we're an example!

>> But you've always been such a...such pride.

Such a cheerleader for Canada.

>> But it is part of leadership.

What is a leader?

It's to inspire people.

For me, when people feel good, they go and buy a car, take a vacation, buy something for the kids.

They go and have dinner outside.

If they are depressed and think everything..the sky is falling, they do nothing!

So I thought that my job was yes, to be the cheerleader.

Let's go!

Canada is the best.

You remember that was the end of my speech.

Vive le Canada!

And so on, because I always felt that...leadership is that.

Leadership is to inspire and motivate the people.

To challenge them.

That was what I was trying to do all the time.

>> Well, it's a pleasure to see you.

>> And thank you so much for your time.

>> My pleasure.

>> And thank you for all you've done.

>> I did my job the best I could.

>> We'll be back next week with another episode of Canada Files .

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