♪ >> Welcome to Canada Files.

I'm Valerie Pringle.

My guest today is Wes Hall.

Who is a highly successful business leader & entrepreneur.

He grew up in abject poverty in Jamaica, raised by his grandmother.

He ended up founding a number of companies in Canada.

Which he documents in his book, "No Bootstraps when You're Barefoot".

He is also the founder of the BlackNorth Initiative.

To combat anti-Black racism in corporate Canada.

>> Valerie: Hi Wes.

>> Wes: Hey Valerie.

How're you doing?

>> I'm good.

You start your book, obviously in a very dramatic fashion.

You're in a shack.

You're a toddler.

You have a four-year-old brother and a baby sister.

And your mom has abandoned you.

You're crying and a guy on a bicycle hears you and stops to try and help you.

>> Yeah, he came in.

Listen, I was only 18 months old so I don't really know the story but my sister tells the story really well.

At the time, she was four.

She said that my mom boiled some porridge.

Left it on the store and told her when the kids are hungry, feed them.

So she fed us.

The porridge was gone.

We're hungry and crying.

So this guy went by on his bicycle, heard the cries came in and looked.

It was a one-bedroom shack.

He walked in on the threshold and looked inside and he saw these three kids.

He asked my sister what's wrong.

"Well, the porridge is done", she said, "And our mom is gone."

"And the kids are hungry."

He realized what went on.

He immediately went to the plantation-- my grandmother was working at the plantation at the time.

Went there and told my grandmother, "Hey, your grandkids are abandoned, go get 'em."

And that's it.

>> She was already looking after a bunch of your siblings.

>> Yeah, she had seven of my siblings.

>> And three of your cousins.

>> And her own special-needs daughter.

And she took you in.

>> Without hesitation.

She didn't even blink.

She got a trolley and went to get us.

Loaded us up on the trolley, brought us to her shack.

She had a two-bedroom shack she was raising all grandkids in.

You have to imagine-- you're on a plantation working.

Then somebody came and said there's three kids of your kids abandoned.

She had to leave, go to her supervisor probably and say, "Hey, I gotta go."

She got us.

Now what's she gonna do the next day?

Because she has to go to work.

And we're not school-aged.

So she literally had to bring us to work with her the next day and the days thereafter.

>> But she was your hero.

>> Giant.

Julia Vassal.

And I never remember a day when she was resentful of her life.

And why did God do this to me?

Why did I have delinquent children?

She never ever said that.

So that's what I remember.

My entire life goes back to those moments of kindness that she showed to me.

And I go, "I want to be that person who, no matter what life throws at you, just don't be bitter."

Just take it with grace.

That's how I try to live my life today.

>> It does sound like your childhood-- you were being looked after and being loved.

This was a great environment although tough and poor.

But the sad part of the story continued in that your mom decided she wanted you back.

She came and took you and she was a really troubled-- >> if that's the kindest description... >> Yeah >> ...woman.

Your time with her was awful, abusive.

>> Yeah so the first 11 years of my life was with my grandmother.

So the experience -- real, selfless parenting.

Yes, extreme poverty.

But my mom showed up at 11 and she said okay.

She points at all the kids and says, "Wes is coming with me."

I thought I'd won the lottery.

But it was a tough three years of my life living with her.

>> Physically and emotionally abusive.

>> You name it.

>> She didn't love you.

>> No.

She told me that specifically.

She told me that so many times-- you're not my child.

...she just called me all kinds of names in the book.

She was troubled.

In these days, we would have diagnosed the problem she had.

It could have been a mental illness that she had.

When she left us, it could have been post-partum depression that she had.

But at that time, we just labelled people like those as cruel.

And they may not have been.

It could have been just the situation that they were going through in life.

>> The end result was you were traumatized by her.

And ended up leaving it at age 13 to live on your own.

>> She threw me out, yeah.

At age 13, after so many years of beating and abusive speech, she finally realized it wasn't hurting me anymore.

Like it had no impact on me anymore.

When she realized that, the physical and verbal punishment had no impact on me, she realized she had lost her power.

She literally packed my bags and threw me out of the house.

"You're on your own now.

You're a man."

That was it.

I picked up this bag--it was a straw bag.

With my worldly belongings in it and there was a gravel road.

I just walked up the street and go, "This is where my life begins."

I was the happiest man when that happened.

>> Thirteen years old though.

You said you started learning how to solve problems.

>> Early on.

>> Where am I going to sleep?

What am I going to eat?

>> You have to appreciate, back then it wasn't like I could go on my iPhone and message a friend, or two or three.

Or send an email.

We didn't even have pay phone booths in that neighbourhood.

We had nothing.

>> Your dad, when you were 16, sent for you.

It was time for you, he felt, what--to get an education and become a man.

>> Yeah, my dad was... God bless him, because a lot of Jamaican fathers at that age, keep in mind he was 25 years old.

They have kids in Jamaica with different women and that's it.

Their life back then was gone.

They don't write the kids, they have nothing to do with the kids anymore.

They leave to come to Canada, US or Britain.

They have a new life and that's their life.

My dad wasn't one of those persons.

My dad knew that he had a responsibility.

He sent for me to come to Canada.

You have to appreciate at the time he did this, was a time when a lot of these kids were coming from Jamaica to Canada and they were getting into trouble.

In and out of jail.

They were telling my dad, "Do not bring your boys, especially boys, to Canada.

He's going to embarrass you."

I remember when I came here.

My dad sat me down and gave me the speech.

And the speech was, "My last name is Hall.

I do not want you to mess with that name.

That name means a lot to me.

I don't want you to ruin it, or ever get into trouble.

Specifically I never want you to go to jail.

Don't ever go to jail."

So can you imagine that?

The only thing my dad asked of me in life was don't go to jail.

That was it, the standard, the bar.

The bar was so low that I could trip over it.

I figured okay.

I think I can live up to that standard.

And I did.

>> Your dad was strict.

Didn't want you to go to jail.

But he...you didn't eventually love his rules a whole lot.

So you left and started doing a lot of really crummy jobs.

You said there's nothing like awful jobs, which is true, to really motivate you.

Security guard.

Briefly in a chicken factory.

Awful.

>> You gotta keep in mind that from 13 - 16 in Jamaica, I was my own man.

I was going to school, paying my own bills, working.

I was an adult from 13 to 16.

Then 16, I became a child again under my dad's roof.

And I could just not tolerate it.

I was never the kid that was going to go to jail.

I knew that because I didn't while I was in Jamaica.

I had plenty of opportunities to do that but I didn't.

So I wasn't going to mess it up coming to Canada.

But he didn't know that.

So at 18 I go, "I gotta be out."

I packed my bag and didn't tell my dad.

I left.

Then okay, I need to work.

I worked at a chicken factory.

It was the worst job ever.

So if your kid has trouble figuring out what they should do in life, they have to get a really bad job.

>> It wakes you up.

>> It's like cold water in your face when you get up first thing in the morning.

There's nothing that brings you back to reality like something that you sit there and go, "I'll be doing this for 8 hours a day, two 15-minute breaks and a 30-minute lunch for 30 years."

This is it and you go, "No, there's got to be something better."

So I was able to explore what better looks like.

And that better just led me to where I am today.

<< Well it starts-- which is great, in the mailroom of a fancy law firm.

You show up-- I love this story!

You go to Goodwill to buy a used suit and tie.

But you show up in that mailroom in a suit and tie because this is not your destination.

>> Well, you know.

Valerie.

The funny thing is, I grew up... when I came to Canada, I was in Malvern in Scarborough.

Malvern is a very under-served community in Toronto.

So when I got the opportunity to interview for this mailroom position on Bay Street, I didn't know what Bay Street was.

When I got into the elevator, I came off on the 13th floor my ear popped because I'd never been in an elevator that high!

Ever, ever!

Then it was like I walked out into an episode of LA Law.

It was so beautiful.

All these art on the wall and expansive views.

I sat there and go, "Wow, this is a different life."

Then I saw lawyers walking around.

But when I went to the job interview, I was still a security guard, wearing my guard uniform.

I didn't even know that I probably should get dressed up because I didn't know where I was going!

I figured I was just going for a job in a mailroom.

Then I saw these lawyers dressed up and fancy...

I go, "Wow, I got the job."

Start Monday.

I went to Goodwill.

Got myself a suit.

Because I got to look like those guys that I saw walking around.

I showed up in the mailroom with a suit on.

These guys in the mailroom looking at me puzzled.

They're wearing jeans and a t-shirt.

And they go, "Why you wearing a suit?"

I said because everyone else was wearing a suit.

They go, "People are going to think you're a lawyer."

>> I go, "Oh, maybe that's not a bad thing."

>> Maybe that's not a bad thing.

>> And I kept wearing a suit ever since then on Bay Street.

>> The story continues and it's a great story.

That you moved up the ladder at various jobs.

Then you ended up in your 30s, founding your own company.

Kingsdale, which was a big risk.

>> It was huge.

>> And a huge success.

>> Yeah.

>> That was specializing in proxy solicitation.

>> And rode a wave of shareholder activism.

Worked super hard and you know, dominated.

>> You know, Valerie, I was 34 when I started the firm.

Got these jobs along the way and I started to watch the market.

Because one of the things-- I'm a very curious person.

You put me in a room to try to figure something out.

It may take me forever but I'll figure it out.

So I go, "This activism thing is happening in the States."

And shareholder activism is now an asset class.

You have activist hedge funds that are set up that are worth billions of dollars today.

What's their job.

They look at companies on the stock market.

That's undervalued because they have poor management.

They get rid of the management team, put their own team in place.

and they turn the company around.

Well, they need somebody to advise and help them to do that.

So I go, "I'm going to be the guy in Canada when it comes to Canada."

I didn't say if , I said when it comes to Canada, I want to be the guy to lead that charge.

Either defend companies or help activists get rid of management in companies.

Everybody thought I was nuts.

It will never happen in Canada.

We'll never have activism ...nobody.

We're too cordial.

Everybody loves each other.

It's a kumbaya nation-- that will never happen.

I go, "It will happen."

I went to every single bank to get financing.

Every single one of them went thumbs down.

I went to all the investors I knew.

Thumbs down.

I went home to my wife and said, "Can we mortgage the house?"

And she gave me the thumbs up.

It was not easy, by the way.

But I had to convince... to get a business plan together to convince her.

She gave the thumbs up.

We took $100,000 against the house mortgage.

I started Kingsdale Advisors.

To this day, we're the number one brand in the country.

>> Now it's interesting, Wes, because your brothers, two of them, are examples of sad stories.

Didn't make it.

One ended up deported, one ended up dead.

How do you understand that story?

>> My brothers came to this country and they saw something very different than I saw.

I saw opportunity but that you had to work to get that.

My brothers felt it was going to be a lot easier for them.

So they went into drugs and gangs.

When my younger brother--at the time was exactly the same age when I came here, 16 years old.

He was in and out of jail until he finally got deported.

My other brother-- I was at work and I got a phone call from the Buffalo police station that we found a body.

And he has an identification on it.

We found your name in a book that he had and we want to know if you're related to this person.

Again, we didn't have the same last name.

I drove to Buffalo and identified the body.

It was my brother, he was beaten and thrown in a dumpster.

That's how he died.

To me, it was sad because I had to call my grandmother to let her know.

It was the saddest call I had to make.

Because she...was broken up.

To me it was...I can't stop giving people a break because of what happened.

I have to keep trying because somebody is going to break that ...path of just violence and poverty.

Somebody's going to break it.

I did.

And I just know other people in my family would eventually do it as well.

>> It was interesting that you thought maybe poverty was the greatest barrier you had to face.

You write that I was mercifully blind to the systemic barriers thrown in my path.

Because I was raised in a place that didn't have them.

You grew in Jamaica.

Doctors, lawyers, teachers, everybody, prime minister is Black.

Then you come to a country that's different.

You wake up.

Sometimes they call this Canadian racism, polite racism .

When did you become aware of it?

>> I was blind to it for a lot of my career.

But it's not because I was naive.

It was because of the fact that I just go, "It's got to be something else.

It can't because I'm Black."

Maybe I'm not smart enough or didn't dress right.

That's why from the moment I came on Bay Street, I go I gotta start looking like everybody else.

I can't look different.

So when I started looking like everybody else, and starting to be treated a little differently, I'm like, "Oh maybe there's a reason."

OF course, then later on, you look back and go, "Wow, I experienced a lot of racism."

Thank God I didn't let it stop me.

Because today, it stops so many people.

>> Tell me what you thought when you saw the murder of George Floyd.

>> I was in my home office because we were in lockdown.

Somebody sent me a note and said, "Have you seen the video?"

I said, "Yes I have."

Because I thought it was the Ahmaud Arbery video when he was jogging through the neighbourhood and he was killed.

They said, "No, no.

There's one more egregious than that, the George Floyd video."

I go, "Okay, send me the link."

I looked at it.

I stood up after looking at it.

There's a mirror in front of my desk at home.

I literally looked in the mirror and I saw George Floyd.

It broke my heart...literally.

And it mentally affected me.

What I was experiencing-- there's a psychological term for it called linked fate .

That means if you saw somebody in your ethnic group experiencing trauma, that is like you personally experiencing that trauma.

So that's what the Black community and I was going through at the time.

I go, "I have to do something about it.

I have to say something and talk about my experience as a Black person."

Because as you mentionned, in Canada, we just go, "There's no racism here."

We're the land of milk and honey.

Everybody's treated the same way.

Not if you're living or experiencing it.

So I started talking about my lived experience.

>> Being pulled over, stopped.

>> Yeah, you name it.

So I say to folks, "You know the Black people who experience the most racism are the wealthy Black people.

Because they're always in places where they don't belong.

They don't see people like them there.

So I talk about driving my fancy Ferrari to the Four Seasons.

Getting out and somebody handing me $20 to valet their car for them.

I'm dressed like this.

Or I talk about going to the airport on a business trip.

I'm in a priority line-- before I hand in my boarding pass, somebody's like, "Oh, you're in the wrong line.

You should be in the back of the plane, over there in the economy line."

Or I talk about people coming to work on my house and say, "Go get Mr. Hall for me."

Or I'm jogging through my neighbourhood with my wife.

They would stop my wife and say, "Could I use your personal trainer one day?"

Those are things where people go, "Is that racism?"

>> Well, you tell me.

>> Yes.

>> Tell me, after George Floyd and you said your conscience dictated you had to act-- you started BlackNorth Initiative.

What's the goal?

>> The goal is..first of all, it's a very lofty goal.

The goal is that we can do better as Canadians, right?

I want to use business leaders to solve this problem.

And view it as a business problem.

For example, business leaders look for talent.

Talent takes your business to the next level.

Do you discriminate against talent?

If you know, for example, if you hire Wes Hall, you're gonna win.

Versus if you hire somebody else that doesn't look like Wes Hall, you're going to lose.

Who're you going to hire?

Wes Hall.

The reason why Kingsdale became the number one firm and built the reputation that we built was because I'm a winner.

And it didn't matter that I'm a Black winner.

I'm a winner and people hire winners.

So I say to these corporate leaders, "Find the winners but make sure when you look at... the pool of winners, that it's inclusive."

That you're not just looking at white winners-- you're looking at winners of colour, women and Black.

Then you go, "Let me build my organization among winners that are diverse.

If we start with a diverse group of people, we don't have to worry about ultimately we need a Black person or a woman here.

We just hire people after that.

The reason we have to now break it down to go, "I need a Black person", is because they don't exist in the organization.

Now we want to create diversity.

So we need to go out and find those people to create that diversity.

Eventually once we solve that problem, we don't have to worry about DEI.

>> Are you worried about a DEI backlash?

>> No, because there is a movement, particularly in the US, to completely discredit the movement.

It's strategic and political.

People who are intentional don't look for excuses to be so.

They look at it and go, "It's the right thing to do."

Nobody can tell me that not having a diverse team is bad.

>> How is BlackNorth doing?

>> BlackNorth is doing amazing.

I'm humbled by it, first of all.

The reason why is because I was able to identify over 500 CEOs in this country that have said I'm going to do something about it.

And they signed a pledge to do something about it.

That humbled me.

When we see the outcome so far, it's absolutely amazing what we've accomplished in just three years.

>> You say, "What made me.

My grandmother's example, my mother's abuse, surviving on my own and my faith.

They taught me to always get back up."

>> Yeah.

It's amazing because people go, "What would you change in your life?"

Well, I probably wouldn't have been here if I changed anything.

If my mother didn't abandon me, it wouldn't have led me to this incredible woman, my grandmother.

Who instilled in me such industriousness and humility.

Such selflessness.

It wouldn't have led me to her.

If my dad didn't leave Jamaica for a better life, it wouldn't instill the just go get it and figure it out kind of attitude which he had to do when he came to this country.

My faith, quite frankly, just keeps me humble.

I'm a Jehovah's Witness.

Could you imagine working on a billion dollar deal one day, then I go to my place of worship and it's my turn to clean the toilet.

Because we don't hire people to do that.

It's the people in the congregation that have to do it.

Somebody says, "Wes, you gotta go clean the men's toilet."

I'm there with an apron cleaning the men's toilet.

The next day, I'm working on the CP Rail multi-billion dollar transaction.

It keeps you humble.

When you're knocking on strangers' doors, and they look at you and say, "Get lost."

Because they're not interested in your message.

It also keeps you humble.

But it also gives you a servant mentality.

That you're here to serve others--not yourself.

So that's what I appreciate about the life that I have.

If I didn't have any of those pieces, I probably would have been a different person today.

>> What does being Canadian mean to you?

>> You know, it means that we're different.

That we're welcoming, we care for other people.

It means that we're an example to the world.

When we travel and have that Canadian flag on our backpack or arm and people see that, it means something to them historically.

We, as Canadians, have to fight hard to make sure we keep that identity.

That when people look to us, they go, "That's a beacon of light-- where I want to be in life."

Unfortunately as a nation, we're losing that.

And we have to fight hard to reclaim it.

>> It's a pleasure spending time with you, Wes Hall.

>> Thank you, Valerie.

Thanks for having me.

>> Thank you.

We'll be back next week with more Canada Files .

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