♪ >> Hello and thank you for joining us on another edition of Canada Files .

I'm Jim Deeks.

Our guest on this episode is Canadian writer, broadcaster and historian, Ted Barris.

The author of 19 books, with #20th coming out this fall.

Ted has become recognized as one of the pre-eminent recorders of our national military history.

And one of the primary sources of the true story of The Great Escape.

Which in reality was a greater adventure than the 1963 Hollywood movie made it out to be.

Even if you roll your eyes at the word "history", I guarantee you'll find this conversation very interesting.

>> Ted Barris, welcome to Canada Files .

>> Pleasure.

>> Before we get to specific stories, I want to ask what first got you interested in Canadian history?

>> I had a grade 5 teacher, Mike Malott.

He was our soccer, baseball and life coach.

He loved history.

In those days in Toronto's public schools...

I grew up in a place called Agincourt, now gobbled up by the city.

In those days, it was a small school.

Mike would go away for lunch-- his home was close enough.

After lunch... on this particular day, we were all set for history class, and no Mike!

We're waiting.

Of course, a grade 5 classroom of kids, chaos!

Suddenly the door flies open.

Bang!

Mike roars in with a cape on.

Big tall boots and a tri-corner hat.

I don't know why the hat?

He leaps onto a desk and says, "I am Vasco da Gama!"

He begins to live the life of an explorer and made history come to life.

Mike was like that through every piece of history that he gave us.

How could you not be drawn in and inspired by that?

Fortunately, I had him again for grade 7.

That's when I began to write things, or think I could write.

He taught me the need to read more.

Discover the history, context, and great historians.

He tantalized me with that wonderful entrance in my life to give me that thirst and hunger for history.

Then my dad, Alex Barris.

Some of your Canadians will know as a broadcaster, newspaper columnist and Order of Canada recipient.

Dad gave me that sense of the need to write, get better and the love of history too.

>> Let's talk about your career as a whole.

You've focused on Canadian military history.

Is that because you think Canada's war record has been underserved, under-appreciated, or largely ignored?

>> Yes, yes and yes.

The reality is that when you and I went to school, same period I alluded to, if anybody asked us about Canada's role in the Boer War, the Great War, the Second World War and on, neither of us would have had any sense of what that meant.

Back in the 50s and 60s, we were taught about Canada's peace-keeping.

That was the over-riding phenomenon that Canadians were known for.

Our role in the United Nations.

Nobody told us that Canadians were warriors.

When I began to discover that... not that we were blood-thirsty war-mongers, but in many ways, Canadians stepped up to be warriors when it was needed.

That was a sense of our history recent and distant past, that I had no concept of.

I began to look into it and the more I did, the more I bumped into veterans.

Veterans who recognized that I was serious, I had done my homework.

My questions were valid and exploratory.

So they consented to sit and hear my naive questions and respond as genuinely as they could.

I've probably interviewed 7,000 - 8,000 veterans over my 50 years of doing this.

All because I probed, was interested and they cared enough to give me the gift of their memories.

<< I agree 100% about the history we were taught in school as kids... we certainly learned about World War I and II.

But as Canadians, we were not taught about Canada's pivotal role.

I wonder even today whether there aren't a lot of viewers on both sides of the border watching this interview who really aren't aware of-- pivotal roles ...the role that Canada played in WWII and in particular, on the D-Day landings in Normandy in 1944.

One of your first books, Juneau , commemorates the landing at Juneau Beach by Canadians forces.

Do you think D-Day would have been as successful as it was if the Canadians had not landed at Juneau.

>> I don't think so.

I think that historians have agreed, and of course, hindsight is 20/20.

I don't think historians recognized until long after the war was over the role that Canadians played on that day.

There was 150,000 troops who landed on June 6th on the beaches of Normandy.

15,000 - 20,000 of them were Canadians.

They were under the umbrella of British command.

Our beach was between two other British beaches.

There was Utah and Omaha, the American beaches.

Farther to the east, there was Gold, Juneau and Sword.

We were book-ended by the British.

We were under that umbrella.

The reality was the Canadians came ashore in one of the toughest zones in that stretch of the Baie de Seine.

Penetrated farther inland than anyone else.

They actually called the Canadians to come back, move your forward lines back to consolidate at the end of June 6th.

It was a key sector, they all were!

There are other roles that Canadians played on D-Day that were so invisible.

In order for 7,000 ships to get from Britain across the channel to France, there were the 5 beaches.

There were 2 channels cleared of mines on the night before.

Two of those channels were cleared by Canadian mine sweepers-- the Royal Canadian Navy.

Nobody knows about that!

These guys went out in the darkness.

They were told to expect 60% casualties overnight.

6 and 10 ships lost.

You'd be lucky if you survived the night.

7,000 ships crossed the channel.

Not one of them sank!

All got there because, in part, of the mine-sweeping done by the Royal Canadian Navy.

Nobody tells you that in history class.

>> Were Canadian seamen, soldiers, paratroopers, pilots known for extraordinary skills, bravery or willingness to sacrifice, perhaps more than other nationalities?

>> Really good question.

What's important to remember about all the activity in WWII is that Canadians represented a large proportion of the allied forces for the phenomenon of volunteerism .

>> Most of the people who came ashore on D-Day, involved in the army, navy, air force, tanks... all of the services were volunteers!

They didn't go around with crisp pressed pant legs, or snappy salutes .

They were there because they cared and sensed it was a job to be done.

That's really the crux of what Canadian participation in the First and Second World War was all about.

The Canadians who signed up had a stronger sense of task than anybody.

They were lumberjacks, students, labourers, farmers, fishermen.

People whose jobs were not snappy salutes and crisp pants.

It was to get up in the morning and get a job done.

When they came overseas, that's exactly what they did!

That task orientation made Canadians distinctive in what they did and accomplished.

>> Let's talk about The Great Escape.

We've all seen the movie with Steve McQueen and James Garner.

>> Great picture...fabulous!

>> I think I've seen it at least five times.

It's a story that has lived on for nearly 70 years.

You are probably the one single author who has written the true story of The Great Escape.

There have been three books prior to yours, at least.

... and various different treatments.

Everyone thinks of the movie.

But you wrote your book nearly 70 years later.

Why did you feel the story had to be written again?

>> Like my dad's story, when I was 14, I saw the movie when it came out in the 60s.

When I grew up in Agincourt, a little town outside of Toronto, Over my back fence, there were three really interesting families.

One was the family of Syl Apps, who was a famous Toronto hockey player.

I didn't realize it at the time.

Up the street was Jack Dennett and his family.

Jack Dennett was a famous Toronto broadcaster for years.

Next to Jack was the Pengelly family.

I went to school with Chris Pengelly, not realizing that his dad, Tony Pengelly, was the guy involved in the forgeries of The Great Escape .

The Donald Pleasence's character that goes blind.

Everyone knows the plot.

It wasn't the British RAF photographer designer who did all the forgeries.

It was Tony Pengelly, born in Truro, Nova Scotia.

I tracked down Chris-- we had lost touch by then.

He gave me a suitcase of Tony's memorabilia.

In it were memoirs, diaries, photographs, diagrams.

That was the spark that made me look more closely at the story.

I realized that many of the characters that we came to know in the movie... the guy who plays the tunnel digger is supposedly a Czech-American in the RAF.

Well, it wasn't.

The guy who designed the tunnels was Wally Floody, who was from Chatham, Ontario.

The guy involved in organizing the security around the camp was a guy from Toronto.

The guy involved in conducting the orchestra and giving the illusion that the theatre productions were there for the entertainment while underneath was the tailoring of all the uniforms to civilian clothes.

The burying of sand under the theatre... it was a guy from Edmonton.

The reality was that Canadians were involved in every aspect of the inner core of the escape committee from the ground up.

The guy who hid the radio which they built out of a crystal set, was from Saskatchewan.

All these characters began to emerge as I dug deeper.

The beauty of it was that even though many of the men had passed, their families preserved their records, letters, diaries and memoirs.

Which no-one else was interested in until I tapped the shoulder, knocked on the door, wrote an email.

Suddenly all these great stories emerged.

That's why the book is called, The Great Escape, A Canadian Story .

In so many ways...1/3 of the men on the escape committee were Canadians!

Does that show itself in the movie?

No!

There's one scene in the movie in which Canada is mentionned.

>> I know where that was.

It was when James Coburn, the Australian decks a fellow solder and says, "Bloody Canadian".

>> That's the only Canadian reference in the whole movie.

Yet it was a very Canadian story.

>> Your book to me was an absolute marvel in the sense of the research that you did.

Writing 70 years after, it amazed me that it almost reads like a day-to-day diary.

How did you get that much detail and data so many years later?

>> Interesting you should say the word "diary".

Clandestinely, many of the Canadians kept diaries and hid them away.

There was a farmer from Vancouver Island, John Colwell.

He was a navigator.

When he was shot down and arrives in camp he was a terrific tinkerer... a guy who could design anything from anything.

One thing they needed in the camp was someone who could design utensils that could dig, and create a bellows... blowing air into the tunnel.

All those little gadgets that they developed weren't there to begin with.

They had to build them.

John...they called him a tin-basher , which was a guy who shaped metal.

He developed all those wonderful utensils and kept a diary.

I was able to map the whole book through those references.

The Tony Pengelly suitcase also had a day-by-day memoir of the start of the tunnel in April 1943 through to the breakout in 1944.

>> There's still lots of material to work from?

>> The Canadian historians that I would talk to would say there's not enough there.

They wouldn't believe me that it was as much of a roadmap for the escape as anything else that's been written.

Because Britons and Americans claim it was their stories.

Do you know how many Americans were in the North Compound where the great escape occurred?

Two.

They were both in the RAF.

They just happened to be there.

It looked awfully like an American story, didn't it?

>> It did but we'll give Hollywood... artistic licence.

Because it was a great film.

>> And it gives me a platform to do this book!

Without the movie, everybody knows what the Great Escape stands for.

Now I've used that wonderful platform, delivered by Hollywood to me and the rest of us as true, but... here's even greater information.

>> Were any of those prisoners of war from Stalag Luft III alive when you did the book?

>> Yes!

>> How did they receive it once it came out?

>> They were thrilled.

Johnny Weir, one of the diggers.

Don Edy one of the penguins... the guys who dispersed the sand around the premises.

A lot of them were thrilled that I was there to recognize the importance and value of the movie.

Also to understand the realities of what they went through.

The conductor, Crighton-- he was alive in Edmonton.

The guy on the bellows all night was from Winnipeg.

All these men were still alive.

They weren't Richard Attenborough or James Garner characters.

Although James Garner's character, the scrounger, getting guards to hand over stuff for blackmailing.

They would haze them, etc.

The real guy was Barry Davidson from Calgary.

All these wonderful people and stories emerged to give and enhance the reality more than the movie did.

>> It really was a Canadian story...your sub-title.

>> In so many ways.

>> Tell us about your next book coming out in the fall 2022.

>> This has been on the back burner, probably because it's a monster.

There's one battle in WWII that is longer than any other.

We've talked about The Battle of the Bulge, D-Day and other important battles.

This one went from September 3, 1939 to May 8, 1945, the Battle of the Atlantic... throughout every day.

The reality and reason for the battle in the Atlantic to keep England alive!

England, since the beginning of its existence, has thrived and survived on the arrival of export.

Without the importation by way of sea, England would starve to death.

Which is exactly what Hitler tried to do.

To blockade Britain to starve it to death.

It was vital that convoys from North America mostly got to England.

Daily, ships were travelling and running the gauntlet-- the subtitle of the book is Gauntlet to Victory .

Running the gauntlet of the U-boats.

The threat was immense.

The losses were huge!

Nobody has told the story of the merchant sailors who lost lives on innocent ships trying to run that gauntlet.

The Corvette navy, the small ships developed in Canada, 150 - 170 feet long.

That battled off the U-boats that were so sophisticated and strong, across 4,000 miles of ocean.

Trying to get from A to B and then back.

The air force developed over the time of the Atlantic battle, aircraft that could travel farther and farther across the Atlantic to give the navies better protection.

The women worked in the navy, involved in breaking Enigma.

I talked to two Canadians who were involved in that.

They were at Bletchley Park where they broke Enigma, the famous code device that encrypted the naval information.

All these fabulous stories have been sitting dormant for 70 years.

My focus is people.

They'll get the context, the big story of the battle of the Atlantic.

It's a 400-page book!

What shined for me were the characters, the people and volunteers that came through this The men and women of Canada who were up to the task.

>> Of your 20 books, which is your most favourite?

Or is there one?

>> That's like asking me which is my favourite child.

I have two daughters and six grandkids.

I can't do that.

Every one of them is a favourite at the time I'm writing it.

Because I'm living it.

Writers often refer to the loneliness of being in your office with your keyboard and the blank page in front of you.

In our case, the screens.

It's not like that for me.

When I go to my office, I step in, set a purpose for this time I'm setting aside.

The voices of some of those 7,000 - 8,000 veterans start to ring in my head and in my gut.

So I'm not alone.

The experience is one of sharing the gift of the memories they have given me over my 50 years of doing this.

My attempt to give them a fair shake in the history that's read by the people who pick up my books.

I won't stop doing it.

My dad died writing.

I hope that's the way it is for me.

I hope I finish what I'm writing before I go.

It's almost a reflex.

A sense that the history must be told and those that love it enough will do it.

It's a passion that we're stuck with.

>> You've focused on writing books and articles.

Have you been approached by Hollywood or major film and documentary producers to develop any of your books, or other stories, into teleplays, films, series?

>> Yes.

The Great Escape is in ...it's a long process.

>> It's in development?

>> Yes, in fact, the CBC has given seed money to a group who are working on a documentary, or docudrama of my Great Escape treatment.

Others have approached me about the others.

I don't think enough about that aspect of my work.

I'm just forging ahead.

I taught journalism for 20 years.

When I retired from teaching, the guy informing me about retirement asked, "What are you going to do in your retirement?"

I said I'm not retiring.

I'm going back to where I came from, my freelance life.

To the world of writing these histories that I love.

For me...it's a passion, a disease.

I won't stop because I'm told you're over 70 years old!

>> You must take a great amount of pride that so much of the work you've done has developed and created a living legacy for Canadians to better understand the sacrifices, bravery, achievements of those who have come before.

>> I'm honoured to be described that way by people-- yourself and others.

The great honour of all is painful.

Because so many men and women I interviewed have passed because they died of old age or some of the infirmities that came from their service.

I'm often approached by families who say, "You know Mom, or Dad, passed away."

"We don't know their military history like you do, Ted."

"Would you come and do the eulogy?"

I've done dozen of eulogies over the past 10 -15 years.

Each time, it's like saying good-bye to my dad or mom.

So I take the life that those veterans gave me, their military experience history when they volunteered as those Canadians did, and try to characterize it so the families can understand why they did what they did.

How they did it.

Why it was important.

In a way, it's painful but it's a legacy, an obligation and it's a gift back for all those extraordinary memories that were shared with me initially.

>> Every guest on Canada Files gets asked the same question and I'm not going to spare you from that.

Every answer has been so interesting.

From a Canadian historian's perspective, what does being Canadian mean to you personally?

>> It means being different.

Taking time to recognize there is another story than the one that's been told generally.

Canadians tend to be off-the-radar of most radar systems.

Whether it's the arts, sports or journalism.

But we're out there and doing extraordinary things.

One of the things I've discovered, is in many ways a tribute to Americans and Brits.

Americans and Britons celebrate the extraordinary experiences of their veterans.

When they came home, they were heroes... the Brits and Americans.

The rest of the population made certain that they were recognized as such.

For some strange reason, Canadians who came home from these wartime experiences did not brag about it.

Did not boast and were not encouraged to.

Back to our earlier point about we were never known as warriors.

Most Canadians came home, and because they were volunteers, stuffed the uniform, diaries, photographs, insignias, awards in the closet, closed the door and went back to being civilians.

Were told in many ways, leave it behind.

And we did so!

What's extraordinary is, we went back to our lives having families, careers, trying to find joy in life, living full lives.

Without realizing what we had done was historic!

Canadians are now discovering, specially in the last 25 years, how extraordinarily pivotal Canadians were in all these historical moments.

It's taken a generation for us to catch up and recognize that.

Canadians are out there on the periphery.

I'm there shouting louder than some.

Bringing these books to people's attention, mostly Canadians.

I've had the thrill of seeing the Americans and Brits recognize what Canadians contributed as well.

That's good.

I'm out there fighting the good fight.

>> Ted, this has been fascinating.

Thanks so much for sharing these stories and reminiscences with us.

It's great Canadian content.

>> Thank you for having me.

>> Thank you for joining us on Canada Files .

We hope you'll do so again next time.

♪